2.0 GDI won't start

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balltearer
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Hello guru's, 

I just purchased a 2003 5 door auto Pinin 2.0 GDI, (with a funky blue leather interior!) for cheap as it has an issue. Thought i would have a go at it but i might of bit off more than i can chew!

so the previous owner replaced the head gasket after it overheated, it has 78k miles on it, they changed the timing belt, water pump etc, but could not get it to start after these repairs, I found that the timing was out by three teeth on the crankshaft, but it still woulnd start and was back buring out the throttle body, so i re timed the intake camsahft, and now have no more burn back, but still no start, I have a good spark out of all the plugs, and have bled the fuel rail. I have the rocker covers off and it looks like its all timed good, with all the marks lined up, #1 cylinder has both the inlet and exhaust valves closed, so TDC compression, am i right in assuming #1 cylinder is at the front of the engine (timing belt end)?? I checked the cam sensor is turning, which is on the exhaust cam, and the wiring for the crank sensor is good, i've got plenty fuel to the HP pump, and what looks like good pressure out of the HP pump.

Any ideas? I'm going to have another crack at it tomorrow before I give up and take my chances with a motor out the wreckers! there is no warning lights on, and my cheap OBD reader says no faults. 

Great site you have here by the way, am looking forward to getting this little mountain going for the winter!!!

Cheers

Claude io
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no start

what do you mean by 'burn back", back fire ? I don't have much knowledge on the gdi engine but I would say that you are right to think that the cylinder one is at the timing belt end. 

Have you done a compression test ? Does the engine cough or run very rough with back fiere ?

Happy io

balltearer
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Thanks for the reply, No i

Thanks for the reply,
No i havent done a compression test, i was going to get round to that after i was 100% sure the timing was spot, as an open valve would cause low compression, i have put petrol down the the inlet valves when there closed to see if they leak, and they dont, so either the exhaust valves arnt sealing that well or i have back pressure/blow by the rings etc, but i dont have any back pressure on turn over so hopefully thats good, i did put a squirt of oil down each bore to try and make a beter seal but still no start.
What i mean by burn back is there is flames/compression coming out the throttle body/inlet manifold, sugesting that an inlet valve is open when theres ignition, but since sorting out the timing (i think) i havent had this since.
Sorry for the differnt terminolgy, i dont work on petrols much, but i like the look if this GDI cos its a lot like a diesel motor.
Just wish it would start!!

Claude io
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not starting

Does the GDI engine have 2 coil pack or 4 coil pack ? My mpi have 2

Happy io

balltearer
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4 coils

Aye it has a coil for each plug, they all seem to be giving out a good spark,
I'm at the wreckers just now so i'm going take a few bits i think i'll need, sensors coils etc.
Thanks

Claude io
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not starting

I asked this mainly because while it is important to have the camshaft properly line up with the crankshaft (with the timing belt)  you may also need to check that the ignition spark happen at the right time. If the coil pack are not connected properly (connection swapped around, like number 3 plug feeding the number 2 cylinder) that could explain why the combustion is going out by the inlet manifold....worth checking...

Happy io

red_daug
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Question and also suggestion

Claude, could it also be a case where the crankshaft sensor has gone bad or the crankshaft gear and key is faulty? My key was broken and the gear was damaged.

 

This happened with my iO, after changing the gear and key it started fine.

Claude io
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yes

Yes, I guess it could....that would also explain why the timing belt was 3 teeth out....I hope that he doesn't have damaged valve or other....

Happy io 

balltearer
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thanks again

thanks again for the replies, 

I was at it all yesterday afternoon and nearly managed to set fire to the car after putting a bit of start ya bas down the throttle body and it back fired!

I was thinking/hoping that the timing was out by 3teeth on the crank shaft cos the previous owner didnt time it right, i done this myself on one occassion before i figured out where to put the slack in the belt for tensioning it, I replaced the crank sensor and wiring, since the wiring is integrated into the front cover, just with parts from the wreckers. 

That crossed my mind to Claude about the firing sequence, but i dont think i can go wrong, the coil packs are bolted directly over the plugs and the harness can plugs wont reach any other cylinder.

And I'm also thinking that this is a non interference engine, cos i'v tried timimng each cam differently and i'v still been able to turn the engine over a ggod few turns by hand. each time i change it i think, yes thats gota be it this time, but stil no fire!! then I hought maybe he got the cams mixed up, but I'm not sure this is possible as the exhaust cam has the slot for the cam speed sensor, which only goes in one way aswell, so it all seems pretty straight forward, i'm not sure how yuo can get this wrong, but somethings not right, I think its still timimng out, cos of the back fire nd also there is no or little gas coming out the exhaust, but there looks like combustion smoke coming out the breathe/rocker covers, so I took the exhaust off after the manifold incase there is a rag stuck in there or something, and i can hear air/gas/smoke coming out but still no fire!! I cleaned out the inlet manifold and throttle body chamber thing, doesnt look like there was much carbon build up, could maybe do with an acid bath just to clear whats in there a 100%, i blanked off the EGR yesterday aswell at the throttle body end while it was off, 

I'l have another crack at it today and play with the timing more, so am i right in thinking that the cams will turn at a 1/4 speed of the crank? or cos its twin cam is it half the crank speed? think i'll just take off the rocker covers again, set the crank to its mark, TDC, and play iwith each cam till it looks right!

we're getting snow soon and i wont to get this little beast out to play!! 

balltearer
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Ok, so the mechanical timing

Ok, so the mechanical timing is 100% spot on, followed all the cylinders through there cycles and there all good, so it must be, injector timing and or spark timing, which i think are off the crank and cam sensors which i'v checked as best i can, so new spark plugs and i'll remove and clean the injectors and see if that does anything!

fordem
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Half speed.

balltearer wrote:

I'l have another crack at it today and play with the timing more, so am i right in thinking that the cams will turn at a 1/4 speed of the crank? or cos its twin cam is it half the crank speed? think i'll just take off the rocker covers again, set the crank to its mark, TDC, and play iwith each cam till it looks right!

It's a four stroke/cycle piston engine - two revolutions of the crankshaft is one cycle - intake-compression-power-exhaust - the cams are what determine which "stroke" it's on, so one revolution of the cam for every two revolutions of the crankshaft.  This holds true regardless of how many cams the engine has - one, two, or four - it's the same relationship, so it's the same, half crankshaft speed.

In case you're not aware of it - there is a soft copy of the FSM in the resource section of the forum, and it has all the details of the timing and troubleshooting for the GDI engine.

balltearer
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Thanks for that, i wasnt

Thanks for that, i wasnt aware of that, i'll have a look, i'm new to this firum so have only really looked at previous posts
Cheers

balltearer
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Ok update! So tested the

Ok update!

So tested the compression on all cylinders and #'s 1,2 and 3 are at 500 ish KPA, cylinder 4 is 1200, all below the lower limit of 1350 KPA, top spec is 1750 to 1800 KPA, so think this is the issue, there doesnt seem to be any blow by/back pressure in the crank case, I havent measured this but, and there is no chuffing noise coming out the exhaust, but at these low revs, 200 rpm or so, its hard to tell, the inlet and exhaust ports of the head are pretty dirty with carbon and the like, I cant believe someone would change the cylinder head gasket and not check the valves are sealing or even clean up the head.

Anyway, I'v compression tested it again with the camshafts off to ensure all the valves are closed and the reading are the same, so i'l take the head off and check the valves/seat etc, at 180 quid for a gasket set, and possibly more if there is damage to the head/valves from the gasket popping and overheating, it might just be worth buying a complete motor out the wreckers for 300!?!  a recon head would probably cost this much!? 

thanks

fordem
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Check ebay

There are gasket sets available on ebay.co.uk for around 135 quid.

Now tell me - how do you do a compresson test with the "camshafts off" - surely if the inlet valves don't open the engine can't "breathe" and can't pump air or build compression.

Ojak
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Just a thought

Hi!

Probably good to get the compression sorted, but if that doesnt help either it might be worthwile to take a look at the servo operating the inlet butterfly valve in the throttlebody. This servo is like an electric motor with two strong magnets on a metal core. Unfortunately these magnets are only glued to the core, and broke on mine giving similar symptoms. First erratic idle/running, and next time no start but still petrol coming and spark as well. In your case maybe the overheating broke the glue (throttelbody is water cooled since hot exhausts goes there). I took mine apart and glued the magnet back with heat resistant epoxy and its worked so far.

Best regards

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