Low Idle + Fuel Filter Change
Hi everyone,
This is a 2 part question.
I have a Pajero IO 1998 1.8 automatic GDI 3-door with 4G93 engine.
It's been idling low, resulting in vibration of the engine.
Following conditions:
- Cold Start in P, warm-up smooth idle at around 1,200rpm settles after about a minute at 700rpm.
-Press the brakes and straight away it drops down to about 500rpm, put it into Drive and it drops even a bit more, and the engine vibrates..
- Once I accelerate, it runs fine, smooth, great performance, average fuel consumption (about 9-10l/100km).
- As soon as i bring the car to a stop, idle stays low, after short or long drives, its all the same: low idle resulting in vibration. Slight rise in RPM when i put it into P, but it still seems low.
Oil + Oil Filter + Spark Plug + Air Filter Change straight after buying it. Followed by an Oil + Oil filter change after about 2500km. Throttle Valve/Body cleaned, around, over and under the plate, its now very clean, and moving freely.
Have also tried the idle rest procedure i saw somewhere on this forum (it was however for an MPI engine i think), not sure if its the correct one. Still no progress.
Great car overall, absolutely loving it, great highway performance, even better bush performance. Only that idle problem is bothering me. Any Ideas?
Second Question:
I want to service/change the Fuel Filter: I know where to find the fuel filter/pump assembly, underneath the passenger seat.
Can't find detailed pictures or diagrams anywhere about which part (the filter) needs to be changed. Which spare part should i use? Should i change the Low pressure pump at the same time.
Thanks so much in advance,
I have the same problem with
I have the same problem with my 1998 1.8L GDI. Idle dips too low and causes vibrations. I have been trying to tune the throttle sensor that is located under the gas pedal. You can adjust the idle by turning the sensor, clockwise to raise the rpm. There are two bolts that hold the assembly in place and two smaller for adjustment. Don't turn it too much, .5 mm incriments will raise about 150-200rpm. I adjusted it today and seems to work when standing (750rpm in all gears), I haven't driven yet so can't be certain if the fix will hold.
^^ This is the wrong approach ^^
Adjusting the idle by shifting the throttle pedal sensor is the wrong approach - you're going to create other issues - especially on a GDI engine, where the throttle plate is NOT slaved to the throttle pedal (GDI engines run "unthrottled" when in stratified charge mode").
What you should do is either find the reason for the low idle and fix it - or - take the car to a Mitsubishi dealer who has a MUT II or III and have him set the target idle.
Yeah I totally agree now that
Yeah I totally agree now that I've driven. The ECU recognises the new position but overrides it eventually and goes back to the same 550 rpm. Unfortunately the Mitsu dealers here in Canada are spoiled and lazy and treat RHD imported vehicles as if they never existed. That is the last option for me.
Any ideas why this might be occurring? The engine doesn't throw a check light in the situation, but the vehicle operates wonderfully when not idling. Throttle response is good, power is good, no misfires or detonation. I do have tappet noise/valve slap that appears and dissapears at unknown intervals, but it doesn't seem like it would be involved.
When I see/hear a statement like this, it irritates me
Unfortunately the Mitsu dealers here in Canada are spoiled and lazy and treat RHD imported vehicles as if they never existed.
And I hear it all the time locally.
First - your Mitsubishi (or any other brand) dealer is under NO obligation whatsoever to assist you with a vehicle that was not released for sale in their region - when you chose to import a used Japanese domestic vehicle, you made a choice, and whether you knew it or not that choice included the headaches of supporting that vehicle - finding service information, finding spares, finding tools - Mitsubishi Canada did not sell you the vehicle and are under NO obligation to get involved. The difference between a LHD Mitsubishi built for the Canadian market and a RHD Mitsubishi built for the Japanese market goes beyond the position of the controls - emission requirements after different, lighting requirements are different, safety requirements are different - if you plan on driving the vehicle on the street, you may yet discover that you are in violation of these "legal" requirements, and this brings me to my second point - you are also going to discover (if you haven't already) that finding the three items I listed above - service information, spares and tools - is going to present a challenge.
To make a long story short - Mitsubishi doesn't supply dealers with service documentation, parts catalogs or test tools for vehicles they are not authorised to sell - your Mitsubishi dealer couldn't help you, even if he wanted to - he cannot order a part (even if you provide the part number) if it's not used on a Canadian market vehicle - it's not available from the spares depot. I hope you can read Japanese, because whatever service documentation exists for your Japanese import vehicle is going to be in Japanese - Mitsubishi doesn't print manuals in english for vehicles not sold in an english speaking country - the manuals available from this site are for the European market - they are close, but are not a match.
Even if Mitsubishi Canada had these resources available to them - why should they assist you - if everyone did as you have done, their sales would drop - does the revenue that they would/could generate from the venture justify the investment it would require? Would you be willing to invest USD$5~6000 on a piece of test equipment so that you could diagnose and/or adjust the idle speed on your vehicle? Why would a dealer make that investment not knowing when next (if ever) the tool would be used?
FWIW - I am not employed by Mitsubishi or any of it's dealers, I own a used RHD Japanese domestic market Pajero iO and I have first hand experience dealing with the issues mentioned - I do have an excellent relationship with the local Mitsubishi dealer and can get access to any or all of their resources. I have a similar relationship with the Suzuki dealer - I also own two Suzukis - both of which are export market.
These issues are not unique to Mitsubishi, they are common in any market where used JDM exports are sold - the majority of the RHD Caribbean region has used JDM vehicles by the thousands, and their owners face these issues every single day - I see people going from store to store with whatever part they need in hand, hoping to find a "match" and not really caring that a match in outward appearance is no indication of suitability.
It's one thing for you, the vehicle owner, to take that approach - but no dealer will do it - expecially a dealer in North America with the ever present threat of litigation when substandard part that looks like the original fails.
Don't blame the dealer - it was your choice.
Thanks for the lecture! This
Thanks for the lecture! This is my third imported vehicle and I know well the trials of owning a a JDM vehicle in a country where a similar model was never seen. I also grew up around imports as my father has been doing this since my childhood. I know that the sourcing of parts requires a hefty ammount of patience and creativity to say the least. I also know that many parts that are used on JDM vehicles were also used on many USDM vehicles and while the specific model, Pajero IO for example, was never imported in to North America many of the parts that that vehicle uses can be found locally even in a scrap yard or from the many Chrysler models that were licenced Mitsubishis before the brand opend shop here.
I am not sure that you have had experience with dealerships in Canada, maybe you are lucky with yours. My experience has been frustrating to say the least and the horror stories that some of my friends, who have worked as technicians for various dealers, joke about make the hair on my back stand. I have an elderly friend who takes his car to a Ford dealer when it gives him problem, they rutinely give him a list of repairs that not only are unnessesary, but do not solve the problem. This is a common tactic to get an unknowing customer to return for a second shop visit. Another common tactic to save time is to only check the curbside brake condition in an inspection, assuming this is the side that accumulates most wear. There are shop stories of snapped piston rods from grossly overfilled engine oil flooding cylinders or wheels falling off or oil spilling out of untightened drain plugs. There's many more Even if the shops were trustworthy I wouldn't go to them unless nessesary, because I know that a shop environment is based on quotas and production goals and these don't foster thouroughness or enthusiasm in employees.
I understand entirely that my vehicle is entirely my responsibility, whether its an import or domestic. I don't expect anyone to buy diagnostics equipment for a one time use, that's stupid. One thing I do expect, however, is that when I approach a business with the possibility of becoming their customer, that they take at least some initiative to entertain me. Instead what happens when I tell them what type of car I have, is a response of dumbfoundedness followed by total rejection of any possiblity that my vehicle has even the slightest chance of being sevicable. This is my opinion, but I believe that in Canada dealers are spoilt from the gluttony that a culture where obselescence is the norm generates. People here don't keep their cars for long, they get rid of them after 10 years and buy an new one, so the dealers have a constant stream of loyal/bound customers and don't want to entertain some guy that didn't invest $25,000 in their enterprise and won't invest the same ammount over the course of his vehicle's life. To me this is gluttony. When I call a parts store, however, they try their best to cross reference my part numbers even though they know they most likely won't be successful.
Anyway, I can't believe I wrote so much about this. It's not really a problem, just a fact that the JDM car owners in Canada are used to. Forum, parts catalogues, repair manuals, and enthusiastic parts technicians are our friends.
Now to get back to the issue at hand. I found, somewhere on this forum, a post about the same problem with the same engine. Here is the text:
Had simmilar Problem on my IO 1.8 GDi DOHC A/T. Extremely low idle 250-300 Rpm, Hesitation on pull off and odd Missfire when in traffic with foot on brake and poor gas milleage. Runs smooth at high RPM's.
Checked and cleaned or replaced everything,EGR Valve, PCV Valve, Purge Control Solenoid Valve and Run lots of Injector cleaner through fuel system, replaced fuel pump relay etc. and no joy. There was some moments when I thought it seemed to run better but then no. It was as if I was treating the symptoms but not the problem.
The OXYGEN SENSOR controls the fuel injection and if that is not correct there seems to be a domino effect with all the other systems that try to over compensate for this. New DENSO DOX-0341 Sensor from UK for half the price compared to Mitsubishi and problem fixed.
I will try this and report with the results.
I didn't want to assume you had a GDI engined vehicle ...
Even though I believe all the iOs produced for the japanese domestic market were GDI engined, I didn't want to make that assumption, but now that you have confirmed it, I find it interesting that you would/should suggest that many of the parts can be found in scrap yards or on chrysler vehicles - despite having spent many an hour searching for 4G93 GDI engine parts, I cannot find a single North American market vehicle that used that engine, and many suspension parts have proved just as challenging - try locating a timing belt kit if you don't believe me.
With regard the O2 sensor - good luck - and I will admit that I'm not very optimistic - if nothing else, apart from the low idle rpm, the symptoms you describe in earlier posts don't match those posted in the thread you're quoting.
You previously state - the vehicle operates wonderfully when not idling. Throttle response is good, power is good, no misfires or detonation.
Compare that to - Hesitation on pull off and odd Missfire when in traffic with foot on brake and poor gas milleage. Runs smooth at high RPM's.
Any luck with figuring out
Any luck with figuring out the reason for low idle? I changed the O2 senor, but it didn't do a thing. It was due for a change anyway and at this time the exhause was very rich and with petrol scent, so I didn't feel bad spending the money. However this didn't solve the smoking issue either. This pushed me to look at the intake tract and inevitably discovering the horror that was hidden behind the throttle plate.
When I took off the throttle body and looked into the manifold I found so much carbon and grime that I've never seen even in a diesel exhaust tract! It was unbelievable at first, there were deposits of up to 5mm thick in some areas! The EGR was (and still is) totally blocked as well as nearly all of the vaccuum lines. Needless to say after 6 hours of scraping and washing with various brushes and solvents the intake is now clean. I ran a detergent (Seafoam) through a vaccuum line just below the throttle plate and the engine now purrs so smoothly. The lifter clatter is gone too, but I did add a can of detergent to the crankcase as well. It runs so well, throttle respose is much faster, more power, high revs are smooth and I gained .5 litre/100km as well! But the low idle persists...
So this bring me to the point of this post: Upon cleaning the intake, I noticed what appears to be a solenoid valve that is wired to the loom with 2 contacts and has 2 vaccuum lines one of which goes to the TB and the other to some plastic gizmos below. I looked at a parts catalogue and the part is referred to as an "emission solenoid valve". Here is a diagram of it... its the one labeled 12421P. Is this perhaps an idle air control valve?
One of it's vaccuum lones is directly exposed to the EGR gasses as it's located about 5cm above the EGR outlet. Whatever this solenoid valve does, it is definately exposed to some severe carbon deposits and is likely clogged or partially clogged. From what I read about idle air control valves, it seems that they a use a current supplied by the ECU to open a valve at varying degrees. If the valve is dirty it may not be operating as intended and this might be why we have a low idle.
Can anyone confirm what this valve does? And perhaps how to test if it's operating correctly. I used that vaccuum line to feed the detergent into the intake when I cleaned it and when the vaccuum line is off the the TB and drawing air in freely the idle RPM increases. That's all I know for now. Foredem, please comment on this, as I know you have experience and knowledge about these engines more than anyone on this forum.
The vacuum valve is the purge
The vacuum valve is the purge valve for the charcoal canister (located below the battery stand), it's part of the EVAP system that traps gasolene vapors from the fuel tank - rather than venting to the atmosphere, they are stored and later burned in the engine.
The coking of the intake is perhaps a serious design flaw on GDI engines, if you haven't removed the intake manifold, you probably haven't gotten to the worst of it yet, that will be on the back of the intake valves.
I could be wrong but I don't think the GDI engine has an IAC valve - I believe they use the "drive-by-wire" throttle control to set the idle speed - if you have don't have a copy of the service manual, check in the resource section of the forum & download it - see section 13, page 13A-49 - the probable causes of incorrect idle speed are listed as failure of the throttle body, and failure of the electronic throttle control system - the manual also goes on to list a number of areas to be checked, which do include the purge valve.
Thanks for the input! I did
Thanks for the input! I did remove the intake manifold and cleaned inside. The ports in the head weren't as dirty as the in the piece between the manifold and the TB. I found the 5 mm buildup in there. The EGR outlet is still blocked up with soot, I didn't clean it as it's the source of that filth, and I don't get any warning lights. So a blanking plate will probably not give any either, at least on this model.
I will dig in the service manual for more answers. Thanks for your help.
What sort of gasket...
What sort of gasket did you find between the manifold & the head - was it reuseable - did you remove the cam covers - is that gasket reuseable also?
I've been toying with the idea of removing mine to take a look see, but, have no real need to do so - apart from some oil consumption (which I suspect maybe both rings and valve seals), my iO runs surprisingly well, and consequently I'm reluctant to take it apart, especially since local auto part stores are asking the equivalent of USD$500 for the gasket set - there is some soot visible below the throttle plate, but nothing as thick as you describe, and I suspect someone may have already cleaned it up.
If I can reuse the gaskets I might pull the manifold off early next year when I can afford the down time
I don't know what a reusable
I don't know what a reusable gasket looks like so maybe you could enlighten me. The gasket between the intake manifold and the head is definately metal (steel perhaps) and is coated. The same style gasket was used in the sections between the TB and manifold as well. It was quite durable, flexible, but had a good shape memory and did not have a raised section around the perimiter as some gaskets do. It seems that mine was never removed and therefore was in quite good condition so I thought that it wouldn't hurt to put it back on. I did not remove the valve covers so I can't say a thing about that. I wish I had made some photos... I have heard of people making their own gaskets from copper sheet, that might be an alternative to the $500 gasket set unless the valve covers have a rubber one.
About taking the manifold off: It was surprisingly easy! As if it was designed to be removed at regulat intervals. There is lots of room to access all of the nessesary mounting points. The entire process took me about 6 hours, and this was because it was the first time and it was terribly dirty. I think it can be done in 3 by a person who's done the job before and doesn't need to clean so much.
First, I removed that big resonator that sits above the manifold. Second, I disconected the loom and its contacts to sensors and what not. Third, was disconnecting all of the vaccum and cooling lines (there is an in and out on the TB). Compressing and moving the clamps to disconect the lines is the most time consuming part of the entire job (maybe my hands are too big). There are a few lines that are bolted to the manifold and these bolt neet to be removed, however most of those lines don't pass through the manifold and don't need to be disconnected, just detached from the manifold. The rest is the mounting points, there are two studs on the underside that attach to a support bar via nuts and of course the point where the manifold attaches to the head. That's pretty much it. Again I wish I made some photos.
Hope this helps. I haven't looked at the manual yet.
Cork or synthetic rubber, possibly nitrile or neoprene
Reusable gaskets are typically made of cork or perhaps synthetic rubber - one time use gaskets are often made of heavy paper - metal gaskets are common in high temp areas - cylinder head & exhaust manifold and are typically not reusable.
A common place for a reuseable gasket is a valve cover - older engines that require periodic valve lash adjustments are often fitted with cork gaskets as much as 3/16" thick - the valve cover gasket on my 1.3 litre Suzuki is this type - these cork gaskets crush a little more with each removal & replacement, so after a number of uses, they loose their ability to compress and will start to leak - some vehicles use a pliable oil resistant, I believe synthetic rubber - the valve cover gasket on my 2.0 Suzuki is like this - with time these gaskets also harden and also loose their sealing ability.
in Polish language forum i
in Polish language forum i found information about that could be flowmeter .. how to chceck ? just Disconnect the cable from the flowmeter for test .. Disconnecting the cable from the flowmeter causes the immediate termination of fluctuations.. rpm go down but engine works smooth... normally .. then this guy just clean flowmeter and mount him back... that's all.. im not the specjalist .. im totally newbie - yesterday i buy my 1'st Pajero Pinin
FYI :
problems with iddle on my PININ solved : symptoms - each of us know well ..
on my case when i turn engine ON i alwas felt the smelt of gasoline .. caus this car was unknown for me, I thought it was normal..
was not ..
when i buy this car, person who sell this car to me say something like "i make for You higPressure pump regeneration".. thats why i not suspect any problem with HP Pump.
so on my case : iddle pump was not sealed well and gasoline flush engine ( good about HP Pump is not on the same side as exhaust manifold)... ... when they make mistake ? when they mount the component of high pressure pump together, they broke one of gaskets ( between small cilinder and pump body ) .. result you can see below
i replace this gasket, and problem is solved definetelly ..
on the end i just teach my engine "iddle" follow this instruction
Congradulations that you got
Congradulations that you got the idle to normalise. But, I am not understanding what you mean by the flow meter. Is it related to the throttle body or fuel pump?
I have done a teardown and replaced all of the top end gaskets and cleaned. The idle is at about 600 rpm now and steady, the engine just vibrates a little too much for my taste at that speed. I read on a Russian forum that people are replacing their engine mounts and vibrations are dissapearing. Don't know if this is true or not, but I will strap down my mounts and see the result.
Another question. What is the normal idle rpm for the IO GDI? What are you getting?
flowmeter - is located behind
flowmeter - is located behind of airfilter / air intake.
FYI Graph with my iddle problem below. "Cisnienie POMPY" = Fuel Pump Pressure .. as we see here is under normal 50 bar..
you can see what ECU do with Fuel Injection when pump not give right value ---increase dose of fuel..RPM go UP .. then value of pressure is on correct level.. so injection give small portion of fuel .. then HPpump on those RPM pump to small pressure and again and again ..
On my case my pump works normally when i drive - below is my aprox 10 mins ride ..engine was hot- pump didnt make any problem through normal drive.. and pressure is correct .. to end of ride...when car is stopt and we can see abnormal low pressure on HP Pump.
all's below
And next picture is the HIGH engine RPM where i push acceleration throthle to max... you can see this also upstairs near 120 value of time line X axiss
so i make zoom of this part with few indicators more
now i ask about help my frends from PL community - cause on my current knowledge something is wrong with this Valve / High PRessure regulator ... he should'nt permit to over 60bar pressure ...he should make something like BLOW OFF with Turbo... but rest of fuel should be redirected back to the fuel tank via dedicated hose.. as i read all manuals ppl said : if on this valve/high pressure regulator we fix 50bar - must be 50 bar no less no more cause that's the mechanics device.... but on oposite side - that was ride to max rpm - to cut off .. we can see green line (injection) hmm... we'll see..
now i know again not enough... i see just about my loww iddle issue is directly correcponded with to low pressure generated by pump
on GDI Carsima engine we had valve where we was abble to rise up pressure... here i have no idea...
im tried today .. so.. if you have any ideas ;) they are welcome ... i know about that is not the complete thread.. but maybe something will be helpfull for You .
New thread
cause last few days i spend sometime with my Pinin IO 1.8GDI
i found some interesting materials about HIDDEN filtration on GDI Engines - hidden - cause you have no chance find this informations on each of manuals.
thread is about my pump and my high pressure regullator - some ideas i found on Carisma GDI Forums that's why i trying to follow them on my engine.
parts to replace - small filters - needed two pieces..
demounting - only with any screw - cause they are very hard to replace
They are located :
1) main fuel hose from tank to HIgh Pressure Pump
2) fuel return hose from HPPump to the tank back
on this holes you can see replaced filters - gold ring plated
Why i think that can solve my problem ? - i read russian article about my pump and pressure regulation follow my symptoms measured by Evoscan
so 1st one is about Fuel pump MD356425 and correspondent regulator MD359912 - you can try to use google translator
http://forum.mek1.ru/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16099
and below suggestion to prevent simmilar stories.
how good fuel we need is nice described here http://www.auto-most.ru/site/ency/engine/185.html
and FYI - we have 2 filters in tank, second on HPpump intake, thrid on HP PUmp return, and on each of injectors.
on injector
filter is on top
and this filters are very very small
Massive thanks from a Volvo owner!
cause last few days i spend sometime with my Pinin IO 1.8GDI
i found some interesting materials about HIDDEN filtration on GDI Engines - hidden - cause you have no chance find this informations on each of manuals.
thread is about my pump and my high pressure regullator - some ideas i found on Carisma GDI Forums that's why i trying to follow them on my engine.
parts to replace - small filters - needed two pieces..
demounting - only with any screw - cause they are very hard to replace
They are located :
1) main fuel hose from tank to HIgh Pressure Pump
2) fuel return hose from HPPump to the tank back
on this holes you can see replaced filters - gold ring plated
Why i think that can solve my problem ? - i read russian article about my pump and pressure regulation follow my symptoms measured by Evoscan
so 1st one is about Fuel pump MD356425 and correspondent regulator MD359912 - you can try to use google translator
http://forum.mek1.ru/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16099
and below suggestion to prevent simmilar stories.
how good fuel we need is nice described here http://www.auto-most.ru/site/ency/engine/185.html
and FYI - we have 2 filters in tank, second on HPpump intake, thrid on HP PUmp return, and on each of injectors.
on injector filter is on top
and this filters are very very small
Just want to say a big thank you for this thread! I own a 2002 Volvo V40 Gdi and have just bought a second hand high pressure punp and this post has helped with things that Volvo just seem to ignore like microfilters. 2 new ones on the way! And also just found out about the injectors also having microfilters.
Learned more in one post than i have in three years of owning it and its not even a Volvo forum!
Thanks
Hey I had a very similar
Hey
I had a very similar problem and found info on reseting the ecu which helped solve my idle.
The steps were something similar to this -
(When the engine is at normal operating temp)
- Remove negative battery connection for 15min and then reconnect
- Turn on the engine with no lights/aircon on for 10min and let idle then switch off
- Turn on the engine with air con on and full fan for 10min and let idle for 10min
I will hope to update this when I find the source
my problem is solved today
my problem is solved today ... by replacing High Pressure fuel pump to another one - i buy it on local webtrade portal ...
what i did before i decide to switch High Pressure Fuel pump cause of iddle issue..
1) cause my fuel mainfold was corroded i replace this pipe to new one ..
2) then i clean the tank - cause was alot of sand / water / dust inside..
3) i replace new low pressure fuel pump to new one ..
4) next i replace fuel filter ( this big one located on fuel tank ) - previous one was totally stooppered
5) i replace whole ignition coils
6) then i go to service center where they clean my fuel injection system by Liquid Molly equipment
all what i did - i did step by step..
and nothing .... - that is mean something was better - on low RPM check engine still shining but rest was okay.. just fuel consumption was very high when the car stay on trafic... .. fortunatelly i found the HP Pump on auction and i buy it with price 70USD - that was the risk .. ( very good price = very bad quality ) but i spend alot of money to try to solve this issue definetelly .. and today after fuel pump replacement all works right .. ... i didnt teach my ECU iddle .. just turn on the engine - and from the beggining all was right..
now i have old one fuel pump at my home, and i will be makeing regeneration.. ;)
Syndicate
replace tank filter
have a look here - this is mine
http://pajerio.com/forum/diy-replace-tank-fuel-filter
the "low pressure" pump in a GDI is the same as the MPI tank pump - should last 250,000kms+ if the fuel is good
.