Big brakes options
I find my front brakes rather underwhelming, especially slowing down from 120/kmh and repeated heavy braking when hooning around the mountain.
Russian friend has a twin-pot bolt in option that I'm looking into - could be a very easy mod for us here in australia!!
will let you know more soon!
Twin pot...
Do you need more "clamping" power or more heat dissipation.
Your description of the problem suggests the latter rather than the former - you already have a ventilated disk in front there, so I would suspect you're looking for a bigger disk, and that's going to mean bigger wheels and that's going to need lower profile tires to fit in the available space.
front brake
Didn't you recently put new disc ? slotted or something ? did you find improvment. May be you should try different brake pad....or stop hooning :)
I understand that you do lots of kms in the hills to go to work that might add to the pb.
Fordem have a good point .....bigger caliper will increase the heat....
Happy io
clamping
heat isn't an issue - more clamping surface area is the key.
yes I should stop hooning but I noticed with larger tyres and when towing a trailer the brakes are less effective i.e. press hard and not as much reaction, i should be able to squeeze them to make the ABS kick in irrespective of the tyres I run and loads I carry - more clamping area.
also will have a rear-disk conversion details soon as well, just trying to find a solution that avoids $400 worth of shoes with a local distributed model
brakes
I fully agree that the bigger tyres do make the brake work less effectively.
But you wrote that the brake are not that good after " repeated heavy braking " this is only due to the heat. As to get the ABS working under heavy braking, the ABS is working because the brake shouldn't block the wheel. What concern me the most is that the braking power of the car and the ABS are adjusted together. Once you increase the braking power, this will help you a lot down that hill, for sure. But if they block the wheel too quickly you will have pb, like on the dirt road when the ABS will work at every braking because the grip is way lower than the black top (not mentioning going down the "hill of death"!)
Too low brakes aren't good...too powerful could be even worse....
This said, I have no knowledge on brake modification and I am very curious to see what you come out with :) May be we will all want to do the same later.....
BTW, did you fit that rear sway bar ?
Happy io
brake mods
I've been modifying brakes for year and years and years. The aim in a big brake mod is to increase the clamping force and surface area of the pad while retaining good long pedal movement. Pedal movement is the key to usable force and control.
Things we dont need to worry about:
front/back balance: The io has a twin-circuit setup so there isn't a real issue with balancing front/back brakes unless you are going brembo's on the front and leaving drums on the back. for those of you in australia youmight know that early holdens have a shared circuit and the front caliper bore must be balanced to the rear cylinder bore, swap out front drums for disks and not alter the rear cylinder will cause lock up on the rear.
disk diameter: enlarging the disk diameter and moving the caliper outward will increase the effective stopping torque and allow more feel however we have no scope for this without running 18" rims as I want to keep the hubs standard and have a direct bolt-on option.
Things we need to worry about:
pedal travel: if you increase the volume of the calipers dramatically you need to increase the volume of the master cylinder to compensate based on original ratio otherwise your will dramatically increase or decrease the pedal travel - too much and you cannot squeeze the brakes on fully, too little and you loose feel and it is too hard to depress.
I'm not planning on changing master cylinder in this mod so need to source a matched front pair of calipers
io front calipers have 57.2mm single piston front calipers, 10278mm2 area
doner calipers have 43mm twin piston calipers 2 x 5808mm2 (11617mm2) area
doner calipers will increase pad area by an aditional 80% and increase the clamping force as well - pedal travel will be slightly longer so the rears will need to be adjusted up before a trial but it is looking very very good. Unfortunatly all calipers i've found so far are for disks 2mm thicker, this isn;t an issue but it means you cannot run your pads to the metal otherwise the pistons will be close to the ends of the bores and could get jammed cocked over in the bores - pistons won;t fall out like in old style calipers.
might need to lathe the disk slightly smaller however i'll see how the caliper fits - might be a 3mm OD reduction or something trivial.
aim is for a direct wrecker/u-pull-it bolt on mod.
brakes issue
the issue I am experiencing is that with larger tyres and heavier loads the brakes cannot brake the traction of the tyre and cause lock-up or initiate the ABS.
with little standard tyres there is less torque and less contact area so less force and friction - easier to stop. Yes the weight on the contact patch of the tyre is less, but 90deg friction equations show that increase in contact patch is more critical than PSI of contact patch.
I thought it might be gassing but after running slotted/vented disks the braking is better, more bite when wet from river crossings and better with repeated braking as they run noticably cooler BUT same maximum braking force issue.
totally
totally - there are so many simple "hacks" you can do playing on the diameter/force torque relationship..
i.e. if you are a cheapskate you can grind away the clutch material on the inside of the clutch radius to improve clutch bite - by shifting the average contact patch outwards from the center (average here, not maximum) you can allow the clutch to hold more torque - sounds stupid but works really well with drag racing etc
just chiming in..
sorry to bring up an old thread, has anyone here measured the caliper mount tabs for the front hubs?
if they are 130mm distance apart, the PFL 8G VR4 brakes should fit
and if they are 160mm distance apart, the FL 8G VR4 or the bigger option Brembo calipers should fit
hub offset and brake master cylinders are different story..
can someone please measure theirs?
I can acquire FL and PFL brakes to test :)
mods.. more mods to come
Front Pajerio IO disc and EC5x disc
Not sure what disc it is or if it does have the correct off set....do you have a ref number ?
I would love a set of rear disc for my io, I will try to get some when I go to Europe....
Happy io
if the pajero proceeds, I would like to have rear disc brakes too..
these are the dimensions for the pajero IO
Pajero IO
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/naughtika/Pajero%20IO/pajero%20IO%20-%20DBA239_zps2ipiviva.png
8G VR4
According to that.. there's 7mm difference in height.. so the disc itself will sit 7mm closer towards the body.
Pretty sure that rotor won't
Pretty sure that rotor won't work. The difference in offset will cause it to hit the tie rod end. I tried the earlier 276mm rotor and it didn't work. Either have to run an earlier gen of mitsu twin pot (276mm) and machine down io rotor diameter or find an similar sized rotor but with a lower offset as there's not much room to play with.
big brakes
Pretty sure that rotor won't work. The difference in offset will cause it to hit the tie rod end. I tried the earlier 276mm rotor and it didn't work. Either have to run an earlier gen of mitsu twin pot (276mm) and machine down io rotor diameter or find an similar sized rotor but with a lower offset as there's not much room to play with.
100% correct.
best easiest option is to lathe the diameter of a standard io disk down to 276 from 287 and run evo3 / RVR hypergear twin calipers - then just don't let the pads run right down or you might pop a piston as the evo3 suits 24mm thick disks and io's are 22mm
Good afternoon! Several
Good afternoon!
Several owners of the Russian, including myself, put 2-pot calipers instead of the native.
Suit by bolts from the models:
Airtrek Turbo (cu2w)
Galant (EA_W) Galant (E5_A, E7_A, E8_A) Galant (EA_A) Galant sedan (E5_A, E7_A, E8_A)
Lancer Sportback (CX_A)
OutlanderOutlander XL
Space Runner (N50)
Space Wagon (N8_W, N94W)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i406/1602/79/7bd082b46716.jpg
According to the brake discs are two options:
1. leave home, but reduces the diameter of 10.5 mm
2. put the disc on the model above, but it puts a spacer under 5 mm. We get more surface for the brake pads
I went to the second path.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i411/1602/f9/1759a44fc313.jpg
Left - Io but reduced, right - galan original.
bigger brakes
Good afternoon!
Several owners of the Russian, including myself, put 2-pot calipers instead of the native.
Suit by bolts from the models:
Airtrek Turbo (cu2w)
Galant (EA_W) Galant (E5_A, E7_A, E8_A) Galant (EA_A) Galant sedan (E5_A, E7_A, E8_A)
Lancer Sportback (CX_A)
OutlanderOutlander XL
Space Runner (N50)
Space Wagon (N8_W, N94W)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i406/1602/79/7bd082b46716.jpg
According to the brake discs are two options:
1. leave home, but reduces the diameter of 10.5 mm
2. put the disc on the model above, but it puts a spacer under 5 mm. We get more surface for the brake pads
I went to the second path.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i411/1602/f9/1759a44fc313.jpg
Left - Io but reduced, right - galan original.
funny you posted this, I have been thinking about this and contemplated on whacking on a 3mm or 5mm spacer behind/under the rotor to lower the offset
i have both FL and PFL calipers at home and will try and see how it goes on the IO.. will show pictures too on how to make it work
flange or tapered
5mm spacer under the disk hat and the mag won't sit on the hub lip....
not sure if this causes issues long term
i'm looking to shave 5mm off the brake frame
I believe if you have the flange/flat nuts it'll cause issue, but if you have the tapered nuts it should be ok as it centers the wheel into the 5 studs...
problem
I spacer UNDER brake disc. There are no problems with the centering disc.
Centering the disc may not be the only problem.
I am not an engineer, but the central part is not only to center the disc, but could be to share the load transferred by the wheel/brakes/suspension. Not having this may put all the load on the wheel nuts only. While this may have not give you any problem, I am not sure if long term or during inpact/accident/4x4 it won't fail.
Again, I do not have any qualification nor I am unable to calculate or estimate the forces that this part do take but having the disc fitted this way does concern me. I wouldn't do it. Some machining of the disc and making a rear spacer that will include something to hold the disc in the center shouldn't be expensive to make.
Happy io
The hub lip carries no load.
I am not an engineer, but the central part is not only to center the disc, but could be to share the load transferred by the wheel/brakes/suspension. Not having this may put all the load on the wheel nuts only. While this may have not give you any problem, I am not sure if long term or during inpact/accident/4x4 it won't fail.
This is so often misunderstood - the load is "carried" by friction between the inner surface of the wheel and the outer surface of the hub, friction caused by the clamping force of the lug nuts.
Try to find an iO with factory steel wheels and examine the wheel rim - you'll find it does not center on the hub in the same manner as the factory alloy rims do - the steel rims, the lug nuts are tapered, and sit in tapered seats, both centering and clamping the wheels to the hubs, the factory alloy rims center on hub lip and shanked flat seated nuts clamp them to the hubs.
If you can't find an iO with factory steel wheels, find any other vehicle with factory steel wheels, you'll see what I mean - steel wheels are always "lug centric" - centered & clamped by tapered lug nuts, alloy wheels may either be "lug centric" or "hub centric" - centered by the hub lip, and clamped by a flat seat lug nut.
disc brake and spacer
I am not an engineer, but the central part is not only to center the disc, but could be to share the load transferred by the wheel/brakes/suspension. Not having this may put all the load on the wheel nuts only. While this may have not give you any problem, I am not sure if long term or during inpact/accident/4x4 it won't fail.
This is so often misunderstood - the load is "carried" by friction between the inner surface of the wheel and the outer surface of the hub, friction caused by the clamping force of the lug nuts.
I understood that...still....not sure !!......if it is the case the spacer will have to be more than a few washer behind the disc then or the weight/clamping force will be holding by them only instead of the full surface of the back of the disc.
Happy io
Syndicate
Keep us informed Bob. Glenn
Keep us informed Bob.
Glenn