Camber revisited
camber
Hi Claud, I am going to see 4wd guru tomorrow where, hopefully I can sort out the camber issue, there is also a chap at the tyre shop he has a way of sorting this out without camber bolts or plates so will ask him what he dose sounds too good to be true. I will have to take out the struts and take off the stupidly harsh cobra springs and put the stock ones back on with some lift spacers I am also looking at getting spacers made up for the rear but may have to put this on hold untill I have saved some cash will let everyone know what i can find out ( Oh no another wheel alignment comming up)
cheers,Kim
Hello Kim
Hello Kim,
You wrote "there is also a chap at the tyre shop he has a way of sorting this out without camber bolts or plates so will ask him what he dose sounds too good to be true
I would be curious about what he offer. I have heard of some, so called, "mechanics" that used to remove the strut and slightly bend it. I hope that it won't be what is going to offer you!!
Happy io
Slotted mounting holes
Claude - around here the most common way of correcting camber issues without camber bolts or plates, is to slot (or ovalize) the upper hole in the strut mounting ear where it bolts to the knuckle - this works the same way as the camber bolts but is, well, less precise and prone to shifting under impact loads - all you need is a rat tail file, or a die grinder and some time.
Do not expect a vehicle with the camber set in this fashion to stay aligned for more than a few weeks, and that is if you're lucky - the first time I saw it done was on a used Toyota Corona that my wife had (10~12 years back), actually the last used car that she had - every two weeks th ecar was in the shop because it was pulling to one side or the other, and when she started to become frustrated I looked at it, and the camber was obviously incorrect & unequal.
The tire/alignment place I use will hammer a wheel weight into a wedge which then goes in the space between the strut body and the knuckle (between the ears) to reduce the chance of the alignment shifting under impact - the alignment tech had heard of camber bolts but had never actually seen one before I took mine in the last time I took a vehicle for aligment (when I install the OME on my Grand Vitara).
I think it's time to pull the pieces together...
I think I've allowed enough time for the folks who are likely to respond to do so - frankly I had hoped to see more responses, I'm pretty certain there are more than three lifted iOs here. The lack of responses from those with lifted iOs, can have several reasons - you just couldn't be bothered to respond (shame on you), you didn't have a camber problem after the lift, you didn't know you had a camber problem or it wasn't enough of a problem for you to do anything about it. Last but not least, some of you without lifts, may even have a camber problem and not be aware of it.
That brings me to the real reason behind the question, and I am going to link two more threads, since they have a bearing on what I'm about to say.
First - when I acquired my iO it had noticeable negative camber on the front wheels, and I set about to find & fix the cause - my initial assumption was worn bushings, but from the time I took the control arms out to replace the bushings, I knew I was looking in the wrong place - I changed the bushes anyway, and as expected still had the problem. To be honest, I still have it, but I've compensated some for it by installing camber bushes.
I am now convinces that my camber problem relates to ride height and sagging springs and that brings me to these posts/threads...
http://www.pajerio.com/forum/full-suspension-lift#comment-12577
http://www.pajerio.com/forum/ride-height
Some of you have provided ride height measurements (and I thank you for your assistance), other measurements have been culled from people's build threads, and yet other measurements made personally, and from the mass of information I have concluded that some of you may not be aware that your iO is not at the correct ride height, that some of you may actually not be lifting your iO, but rather returning it to the correct ride height, which is one explanation for why there is no camber problem.
At least one of the persons with a lifted iO had ride height measurements before the lift which match what I have, and I'm almost certain there was a camber problem before the lift.
I'm going to post an image later this evening, one that was taken from an Australian iO owner's manual, along with the published ride height specification, and based on that information, which is as close to getting it from Mitsubishi as I can, my iO is 21mm low on the passenger side and 26mm low on the driver side - notice how nicely these numbers correlate with the lift to be gained from swapping the high pan struts?
camber
There's one more reason for not responding which is hopefully an acceptable one - I've been away on holiday with my only web access via an iPhone, which is acceptable for viewing but posting is a bit too much of a pain in the ass for me, sorry. Good thread though and I am also interested in what comes from it.
I haven't got any measurements to hand but will do that in the weekend if I get a chance - the detail you're looking for might already be in my NZIO front and rear lift thread. What I can say is that with the front lift I now have from...
fitting late struts with early springs = +25mm
25mm spacer at the top of the strut =+25mm
(and to complete the mod list, but these do not impact camber - a diff drop of 25mm, 50mm strut extenders, 225/75 16 tyres)
... there is noticeable positive camber when you look at how the wheels are sitting from the front - if I had to guess I'd say I've added around 1.5 degrees of camber with the 50mm lift
At the rear the firmer and longer BA Astina springs (+45mm IIRC) with standard panhard results in the axle being pushed around 10mm to the right (as you look at it from the rear of the car). I don't notice any particularly bad driving characteristics from any of this but rarely go over 100kph because just the lift itself and running MT tyres makes the car feel a bit less stable for sudden turning or braking. I would like to extend the panhard and if it can be done at a reasonable cost, add some negative to the camber, but to be honest io mods are not really a priority for me right now with a baby due to arrive in 5 weeks :)
Got yours - I think
There's one more reason for not responding which is hopefully an acceptable one - I've been away on holiday with my only web access via an iPhone, which is acceptable for viewing but posting is a bit too much of a pain in the ass for me, sorry. Good thread though and I am also interested in what comes from it.
I haven't got any measurements to hand but will do that in the weekend if I get a chance - the detail you're looking for might already be in my NZIO front and rear lift thread. What I can say is that with the front lift I now have from...
I'm pretty certain I have your numbers already, but, I have to go down to my desk to be sure - but from what you say, you have some positive camber, which you're living with.
Thanks for chipping in.
spacers
Singlecell - After fitting the late struts (+25mm) I couldn't actually fit the spacers at all without dropping the diff because it was impossible to fit the strut without pushing the driveshafts out of their sockets (due to the extreme downwards angle). I think whatever method you use for suspension lift, if it takes your suspension lift over 30mm or so you should plan to drop the diff. And you should consider extenders or koni's or some other solution to extend the droop (in my opinion).
.
Singlecell - After fitting the late struts (+25mm) I couldn't actually fit the spacers at all without dropping the diff because it was impossible to fit the strut without pushing the driveshafts out of their sockets (due to the extreme downwards angle). I think whatever method you use for suspension lift, if it takes your suspension lift over 30mm or so you should plan to drop the diff. And you should consider extenders or koni's or some other solution to extend the droop (in my opinion).
I am currently at as much lift as I can go without dropping my diff. I am looking at getting 50mm spacers for on top of the strut, but I dont want to do this and find out you cant drop the diff 50mm. What I am asking is if when you did yours, did you notice something that would make a 50mm drop no doable?
Here's that image I promised
The ground clearance and height dimensions will be based on a tire size of 215/65R16, since that is the size specified in the manual from which this was taken.
Using these dimensions and measuring to the flat surface sirectly infront of the control arm pivot, I've calculated that my iO has sagged by at least 21mm on the left and 26 on the right.
Oh - congrats on the impending new arrival NZIO, and to all the new & prospective fathers (parents) on the forum, with regard the coming expenses - PLEASE start a college fund EARLY. I'd like to think my days of new arrivals are over (I have four), the youngest of whom started grad school in Florida this September - mods are never a priority here.
HI Claud and everyone els
HI Claud and everyone els interested in the camber issue should have got back to you earlier been mega busy at work. The tyre shop guy dose indeed oversizes one of the bolt holes that attach the struts and uses this to adjust the camber I have 35mm spacers in my io and was expecting to have to do some sort of adjustment but the amount of camber on the front wheels is about 12 minutes and was told it probably wasn't worth it. Anyway don't like the sound of that method of adjustment.Some of the others in this forum would be more qualified to go into details.I haven't had any technical training in vehicles but one thing this forum has taught me is ask the people that have, lots of questions.
cheers Kim
ps congrats on the new addition to the family Don
camber adjustment
I can't say that I like this system either and I am not even sure that it is legal in Australia, or even safe. Fordem as found a camber bolt kit and, I think, that they are great and safe...again I am not an engineer, far from it. The plate I got made are a bit more expensive, and takes a bit more time to fit, but you can adjust the caster angle with them.
I have mentioned in the past, once you lift your io and fit bigger tyre, the higher you go, the bigger the tyres you fit , the more the car will start wandering at higher speed, increasing the caster angle will improve this and have a few other lesser advantages, this is often done on other 4wd.
Happy io.
oversize?
I'm trying to imagine how oversizing one bolt hole anywher allows a camber change (and I'm failing). Is this about oversizing all three top bolt holes to allow the top of the strut to move inboard, and then be (hopefully) held in place by the torque on the bolts? Or is there a plan for the bottom end that I'm not able to imagine....
Thanks for the best wishes Kim, Fordem, Singlecell... I'm a fair bit older and slower than most to enter this stage in life, but would like to think I'm a bit wiser than I was 20 years ago too. Looking forward to it in any case :)
.
I'm trying to imagine how oversizing one bolt hole anywher allows a camber change (and I'm failing). Is this about oversizing all three top bolt holes to allow the top of the strut to move inboard, and then be (hopefully) held in place by the torque on the bolts? Or is there a plan for the bottom end that I'm not able to imagine....
Thanks for the best wishes Kim, Fordem, Singlecell... I'm a fair bit older and slower than most to enter this stage in life, but would like to think I'm a bit wiser than I was 20 years ago too. Looking forward to it in any case :)
I am thinking it would be one of the two at the bottom of the strut? Would that not adjust the camber?
camber/new Dad
That is what I understood too, once you make the opening of one of the 2 bolts at the bottom of the strut, the camber angle can be adjusted by moving the top of the wheel in or out. For this to be safer, once the correct angle is found, I would weld a plate, with the hole the same size as the original one, on the top of the oversize/modified hole. I would check with an engineer before doing something like that.
For the new Dad, slow is good, I am not sure if wiser is...lol....
Happy .....hum.....just happy....
Man - it is something to look forward to (and look back on also)
Looking forward to it in any case :)
After 30+ years of being a father, with all the (still on-going) challenges & frustrations - I think my children (I have four ranging from 20~31, and lost one along the way) are truly the greatest joys in my life - three of them live in Guyana, the eldest is married, two are stil at home, and the last, is the one in Florida at grad school).
If I might be allowed one more suggestion - don't forget to tell them how you feel - we have a tendency (I don't believe I'm alone in this regard), not to tell our children how proud they makes us, although we will criticise them when necessary - trust me on this - if they know what makes you proud, they WILL make you proud - most of them anyway.
Back on topic...
I was leaving the local Mitsubishi dealership this morning (went to fit a filter on a UPS) and they were rolling a black 5dr iO out of the workshop, so I grabbed my tape measure - from the lower edge of the rim to the guard - 640mm front, 680mm rear - it had high pan struts and no trace of negative camber, despite being close to 25mm lower than most of the ones I have measured.
This one had a turbo charged GDI engine, it's the second GDI Turbo I have measured - the other one had 640 on the RF and 650 on the LF but had, had both struts changed after an accident damaged the right side - that one had noticeable negative camber which I assumed related to the accident damage.
Bottom bolt
OK got it now. I guess worst case with this set up you have a degree or two of camber flipping in and out if the bolt loosened. I've actually had to drive a stage in a tarmac rally with exactly this happening on one front wheel due to a set of camber adjustment bolts that were fitted with too much copperslip. While its not great for at the limit handling, it's not about to throw you off the road if it happens.
Syndicate
camber
Ktm have done something about the camber, but nothing adjustable. I am surprised that we are the only one that decided to do something regarding the wheel alignment adjustment (and very happy to have done so) I guess we all have different set up, need.
Have you found the new strut?
Happy io.
My io is now SOLD Thankshttp://pajerio.com/forum/claudes-io-2002-zr-built-thread-onlyhappy-io