NZIO Front & Rear Lift (was 'Raised rear springs')
I know there's the Dobinsons kit that some here have fitted (and some fitted and removed). I understand they are firmer than standard which I wouldn't be keen on, so I've been looking for alternatives. In browsing the King Springs catalogue http://www.kingsprings.com.au/catalogue/kings_master_catalogue.pdf I noticed they have a part number for a raied Pajero io rear spring. The same part number appears in the catalogue for certain models of Ford Laser and Mazda 323
Here's the three parts of the catalogue - Once I've sorted out the fronts I'm going to take a rear spring around some Ford and Mazda wreckers and see if I can find something that looks like it will fit. Anyone else ever looked into this?
Trial fit of BA Mazda springs
I got a set of Mazda Astina front struts from a wrecker today - $60 each. They wouldn't just sell me the springs so I got the whole struts. The wreckers here know this model as a BA and both the ones I went to thought the springs are used on other Mazdas including Demio and Lantis. The ones I got came off a model like this with the small headlights:
Here's the struts:
Ther are marked left and right and I it's best to get a matched set if you can as there are small variations between models. The first wrecker I went to had two struts from different cars which looked the same at first glance, but when I looked closer at them they were wound slightly differently and I thought one looked to be thicker than the other - his calipers proved this was the case with .25mm difference between them. Not much, but enough to make a difference to ride heigth and handling. The second place I went to had a car in the yard ith both struts on - he stripped them while I waited. When I got them home I realised they were different part numbers and manufacturers. The springs looked the same though and both were the same width steel of 12.9mm (vs 11.8mm for the standard springs) so I figure one had been replaced while the car was on the road.
Once I'd popped both springs off I chocked the front wheels, jacked up the rear (under the towbar mount, obviously not the diff for this job) and put a pair of axle stands under the chassis rails. From there it was just a matter of taking off the wheels, undoing the bottom damper mount (a bit of upwards pressure from the jack takes the load off the joint and the bolt comes out easier), and letting the hub drop to release the springs.
The left side spring slid right out without any trouble, I had to use compressors on the right side and stand on the hub to get it out.
The standard springs free length is 305mm. The Mazda ones are 335 - here they are side by side (the Mazda one on the right is upside down)
The Mazda struts are 'handed' with one marked L the other R. The R spring is 5mm longer than the L spring, and when I took the standard IO springs out it's the same - the right is slightly longer. This is either a coincidence or its to balance up a right hand drive vehicle with one person in the drivers seat. I put the R Mazda spring on the right side and given how the car levelled out at the end this was the right thing to do.
The io's rubber inserts that sit on each end of the spring fit perfectly onto the Mazda springs so I fitted them into the rear (compressors needed on only the right side again), connected up the shocks, put the wheels on and got out the tape measure...
Left side before 785mm and after 822mm = 37mm lift:
Right side before 787mm and after 825mm = 38mm lift:
Before (this was the pic I took for rim comparisons, but it shows the standard ride height):
and now:
So the net result is 38mm of lift with a set of springs that fit exactly like originals, the ride will be a bit firmer and I have lost 38mm of droop - I haven't been for a proper drive yet so can't say how that feels. Tomorrow I'll pick up the KYB 334405s and hopefully have an equivalent amount of lift on the front and be able to get my Kumho 225/75s on at last!
Don
awesome
Very awesome, the wreckers near here have a few Ford Laser that match the table of spring part numbers you mentioned. I might have to go grab a couple myself. Keen to see how it goes with the KYB shocks. Would have been good to see how the KYBs went with the original springs too.
Hard to see a height differance in the full car photo though. Might be just because one is closer then the other.
KYBs
You'll get to see how the KYBs go with the original springs - that's the next job (front). As long as work doesn't get in the way I'll have that done by the end of tomorrow.
The lifted pic is taken from higher off the ground, and using a phone instead of a proper camera so yeah it's probably not so obvious to see the change, but the measurements don't lie (and were done on a level concrete floor after bouncing it around a bit to make sure everything's settled).
spring
Excuse the language but that is bloody good. A little bit at the time we should find more and more of these, like the mazda wheels, the fto wheels, and now the mazda rear spring. If I remenber well KTM fitted a longer shock for the rear of his io, but if I recall they are even longer, might be an option to compensate the shortening of the travel. I have post a "help" message in "general" may be you could help while you have the strut out:)
True your pictures are not the best but I can clearly see the difference by looking at the straight edge of the lower part of the body and the middle of your rims; once lower, then magic!, higher:)
Happy io.
derrrpp
You need to read my long post above again - its all about the longer rear springs I just fitted. :)
OOHHHH, the 323s front springs became your rears!!! Now it makes sense! When I said I couldnt see any lift, I was thinking how weird it was that your rear looked higher, haha.
longer shocks
I'm picking up the KYB fronts from a shock specialist this avo and am going to ask him what he's got in the catalogue to fit. Your build thread says you have 75mm more travel, which is more than I think I saw it drop by yesterday after disconnecting the shock mount. Did you have to make any other changes to allow it to drop that much further (brake lines, etc?). Is it still the shock itself that stops it going further? Cheers
KYB 334405 fronts
The new KYBs are in on the front - I'll write up some details and pics on another thread in the weekend but the short story is:
- The 334405 KYB struts have the spring pan around 25mm higher than my original struts (1999 5 door 1.8), but otherwise appear to be identical - they are the same overall length when measured end to end so it is ONLY the spring pan height that is different.
- Because the spring pan is closer to the top of the strut I had to compress the springs 25mm more than the originals to get the top seat bolted down. This means less overall travel. I don't know yet how much of an issue this is.
- Total body lift on each corner from where I started is around 70mm - that's 38mm from the suspension + 32mm from the bigger tyres (which also have full tread vs 2/3 worn for my AT2s).
- The Kumho 225/75 16 tyres on FTO rims fit very well with 12mm clearance to the spring pan and 20mm between sidewall and strut. No rubbing on full lock.
- I have a click/squeak noise in the right front strut - I didn't have time to look into it but suspect I didn't get the seats lined up properly on that one so will need to sort that before going anywhere.
So... I got the lift and the tyre clearance I wanted, but I'm not calling it a success until I see how it drives. Bit worried about how the changes to the front in particular will affect articulation and ride comfort....
new tyres
Fantastic, you have done everything quiet quickly. I hope that the insert won't max out, but the ride comfort will be good, I have tried different tyre pressure for my km2, I use 32psi for the road, any higher and the wandering get worst (still it is not that bad) and drop to 22psi on dirt road and light 4x4 and that's where you will feel a big improvement in the confort. (all with the km2, might be different for your tyres)
Even if the strut max out, you have done 90% of the work and spending:) and the car has got to look great
Happy io.
Final result
After torquing up the strut nuts to spec (fixed ther squeak and rattle) and running through some puddles to settle it down I'm pretty happy with the result. I know I've lost some articulation but it didn't make a difference on one of the rougher trails around here - if I do any more serious 4WDing I'll need to look at getting longer strut inserts at the front and dampers at the rear, but its OK for now.
The final numbers are:
Before: FL=768, FR=767, RL=785, RR=787
After: FL=820, FR=815, RL=852, RR=850
Net Lift: FL=52, FR=48, RL=67, RR=63
So I've got 10mm more at the back than the front - not enough to worry too much but I might fix it with some spacers on the top strut - there's at least 10mm available in the 3 strut bolts so I just need a lump of alu or poly to sit between the top mount and the body.
Here she is:
Fronts
Some more info in this thread:
http://www.pajerio.com/forum/mitsubishi-fto-wheels
I bought some new KYB struts - part no 334405 - and refitted the standard springs. The KYB strut is identical to my standard one except the spring pan is mounted around 30mm higher. This is only good for those with early cars that have a lower spring pan - I've just posted my original strut dimensions in the Strut Data thread so check that if you want to see if yours are the same.
I've only just done this and am not recommending it to anyone else until I've got some road and dirt miles behind me (ie proceed at your own risk if you want to).
wait
Looks tough as. I might go ahead and order some KYBs myself now. I am keen to get the front a little higher, I always seem to just rub under the front when I am out and about.
Wait! singlecell, looks like you already drive a new io that has the higher spring pan - check the strut length in your io against the "strut data" thread.
fitting the kyb's might result in no lift at all as it is only really an advantage for the older io's.
Looks the goods NZIO.
Looks great.
My shocks do still limit droop and no other mod bar springs and spacers has been done.
The brake and ABS lines are definitely at max with only a little slack left.
The panhard rod needs lengthening to centralize the diff.
cheers
Edit: I just looked at your photos again and was wondering, with your tyres being directional, what your doing for a spare?
Spare
Its actually worse than just directional - I've also got the second set of 4 Kia rims with 215/65s on them :)
I'm keeping the standard rim and 215/65 there for now as a 'get me home' option, and I'll carry a can of tyre weld if I go on any longer trips. Not ideal but that's the plan.
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Looks tough as. I might go ahead and order some KYBs myself now. I am keen to get the front a little higher, I always seem to just rub under the front when I am out and about.
Wait! singlecell, looks like you already drive a new io that has the higher spring pan - check the strut length in your io against the "strut data" thread.
fitting the kyb's might result in no lift at all as it is only really an advantage for the older io's.
I thought it was only the 2002s that had the different pan hieght. I will have to check that out tomorrow. I think I got the older style if I remember from when I got the bigger rubber. But that was only guess work.
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Yokohama Geolandar A/T-S on 17" rims. I am not sure how much bigger then are then the tyres I replaced. The previous owner had plain road tyres on it. If I ever get a lift done, when these tyres need replaceing Ill go down to a 16" rim and get something a bit chunkier.
Check the strut data thread
Didn't someone just figure out that Outlander struts offer more travel?
Perhaps the springs could also be swapped in? We need to try and find a workshop manual for the Outlander and see what specs they have from standard.
Someone posted dimensions of what is supposedly a KYB strut for an Outlander in the strut data thread - you can compare it to the other strut measurements.
I would suggest a cautious approach - the Outlander is a larger & heavier vehicle and the valving/damping will probably be incorrect for the smaller, lighter iO - also, a quick glance at the pictures & dimensions posted will show that the spring pan sits at a different angle.
LWB, SWB
So I looked at Dobinsons catalog for springs, and they have different springs listed for the swb and lwb. The standard lwb springs being the same part number as the swb lifted springs. Yet and kings catalog only lists one set for the car. Anyone know what the go is with that?
Dobinsons catalog - http://www.dobinsonsprings.com/docs/catalogues/Coil/pdf/CoilSpringCatalogue.pdf
Damping
Oh yeah, I hadn't considered the different damping factor.
Ironman also do raised springs which are the same for LWB and SWB. It sounds as though Dobinsons have thought about it more than the other companies, but after the horror stories on here I'm not that confident.
The rear springs in LWB and SWB are identical as standard. The fronts vary by around 10mm as I understand it. I am not sure about the actual differences between the Series 1 vs Series 2 iO springs, but it seems that the series 1 had longer springs to suit the lower strut pan.
NZIO looks to have done the cheapest and most effective lift, albeit with less down-travel. I'm keen to look into the outlander specs and see how it will go with that. I think Daniel has one of each of these cars..? Maybe he could help out with some dimensions and/or experiments, though I'd understand if he didn't want to fiddle around too much and cause any damage to one or both of his vehicles.
2003 outlander
Oh yeah, I hadn't considered the different damping factor.
Ironman also do raised springs which are the same for LWB and SWB. It sounds as though Dobinsons have thought about it more than the other companies, but after the horror stories on here I'm not that confident.
The rear springs in LWB and SWB are identical as standard. The fronts vary by around 10mm as I understand it. I am not sure about the actual differences between the Series 1 vs Series 2 iO springs, but it seems that the series 1 had longer springs to suit the lower strut pan.
NZIO looks to have done the cheapest and most effective lift, albeit with less down-travel. I'm keen to look into the outlander specs and see how it will go with that. I think Daniel has one of each of these cars..? Maybe he could help out with some dimensions and/or experiments, though I'd understand if he didn't want to fiddle around too much and cause any damage to one or both of his vehicles.
That's right.
I have a 2003 outlander and a 2002 io.
and as far as damping factors go, this could be a major issue, as the io is over 200kg lighter than the outlander. looking at my spring pans on each vehicle, th outlander pans look to be a little more angled than in the iO.
of course i will try and confirm this for you guys, but I don't think ill be taking the struts out, i'll just measure them with them mounte4d and with the wheels off.
also there looks to be quite a bit more clearance between the tyres and the spring pans in the outlander but this could be because of the smaller tyre size. by that i mean im trying to judge what the clearance would be with my io wheels on it also.
In fact maybe ill do that to. as the wheel/rim specs on each vehicle are identical, i might also measure the clearance from the top of the tyre to the spring pan. of course interchanging the tyres on each vehicle...
Thoughts...
I also picked up that the LWB
I also picked up that the LWB & SWB springs differ, but being said I saw that on the dobinson manual so I wont be able to confirm that. mustb saw after reading the post a light came on again with many ideas popping into my head on what to do. We also have that shape mazda running around as well as the 323 but very limited. For some reason the people over here likes them very much and they do not brake (LOL) so finding one at the wreckers are gonna be tricky. Well last thying i must say is WELLDONE for all the effort made in doing the conversion.
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I remember one person who had a bad experiance with the dobinson spring lift, but that was putting them into the later suspension, if the spring is designed to give a lift the earlier suspension I can only imagine the issues it would cause in the later ones.
I wouldnt mind forking out the 400 dollars to try it out but it wouldnt really help with the spring pan.
Have I missed out on some info with this outlander struts? Are they a fit fir out cars?
Koni lift insert
I.m going the koni-insert option into a set of used 2002 struts using my stock springs.
Will give 30-40mm lift with same spring rates and damping.
Koni inserts are about $400a pair though and only fit certain struts but are fully adjustable.
Had a look at an outlander today and they do look different inn the strut and spring angle
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Koni idea doesnt seem too bad, I though it sounded like a fair bit of work thought a quick google search found this, doesnt seem too hard to pull off at all.
Sorry if its been posted elsewhere, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1219607
Info on the koni inserts and what struts are needed:
Front: for original APA-KYB struts only - excl. KYB OEM no. MR319792 & MR455401
Koni Font P/N- 8640-1459 Rear P/N- 8040-1321
Correct me if I am wrong, but those are not the KYB part numbers currently listed. So maybe the konis are only for the older lower pan struts? I am making many assumptions here.
koni
I just had a look at this link, it is well done. Being made for a sedan they don't have to measure too much for the wheel travel! Glen as done some beauty and installed some washer at the bottom of the strut to adjust the lenght of the insert. That could be a good solution to help for the io "wandering" when lifted or have bigger tyres. It will be good to know if they have a longer travel?
Happy io.
Possibly the reverse.
MR319792 & MR455401 have been photographed & measured (in the strut data thread) and are known to be the ones with the lower spring pan - since the Koni application guide specifically excludes those, that would mean they can't be used on the early vehicles.
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MR319792 & MR455401 have been photographed & measured (in the strut data thread) and are known to be the ones with the lower spring pan - since the Koni application guide specifically excludes those, that would mean they can't be used on the early vehicles.
Ah it says excl for excluding, when I read it I thought it said excel, as in the excel-g series. Silly me.
Koni strut mod
MR319792 & MR455401 have been photographed & measured (in the strut data thread) and are known to be the ones with the lower spring pan - since the Koni application guide specifically excludes those, that would mean they can't be used on the early vehicles.
Ah it says excl for excluding, when I read it I thought it said excel, as in the excel-g series. Silly me.
That shouldn't be that much of an issue, The koni's only fit in one type of Io strut housing (the rep told me the diameter to check but i've forgotten) so youwould need to source a pair of dead struts from a wrecker to butcher up anyway. Considering you will be dumping the oil and gas when removing the top of the strut you can then re-weld your spring-pan as high as you want or to any configuration you want.
The aim is to remove as little of the strut tube as possible when you cut the top off, this lets you mount the koni insert higher in the strut tube making the strut effectivly longer (you will need a spacer in the bottom of the tube, i was thinking a piece of aluminium bar with a hole drilled through the middle.) this doesn't increase or decrease your travel from stock but lets you run standard springs on raised spring seats without loosing any more travel than stock.
The end result is an effectivly standart strut, same dampening, same spring stiffness but longer therefore giving you some lift. Your lowr control arm angle will steepen however I am aiming to do this in conjunction with a diff-drop so the angles will stay the same.
not wanting to stray too far off topic, I'll need to lower the engine a bit also as I'm also seriously looking down the path of doing a DOHC MIVEC head conversion to my 4G94 SOHC motor. It is pretty straight forward with most parts direct bolt-on from other models and as long as you keep the compresion stock no need for replacement pistons. I think this will be more viable long term than turbo as the bottom end of the power curve remains about the same but peaks a lot higher and with a higher rpm, the torque curve is fatter overall but not massivly so, hopefully preventing me tearing my gearbox clean out when I dump the clutch on a hill climb.
video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzNZCnUYtzo
got to love the bit with the rattle gun releasing the spring!
..
Looks tough as. I might go ahead and order some KYBs myself now. I am keen to get the front a little higher, I always seem to just rub under the front when I am out and about.
Wait! singlecell, looks like you already drive a new io that has the higher spring pan - check the strut length in your io against the "strut data" thread.
fitting the kyb's might result in no lift at all as it is only really an advantage for the older io's.
I thought it was only the 2002s that had the different pan hieght. I will have to check that out tomorrow. I think I got the older style if I remember from when I got the bigger rubber. But that was only guess work.
I must have had a special moment the other day, I went back and remeasured my struts as I was starting to think I may have forgot the measurement last time and "remembered" incorretly. Turns out my struts are 26.5mm from the base to the weld of the pan. Which would make them the new style. So no KYB option for me. :(
But I looked at someones struts from an old style, and the spring had 5 coils. Where as mine only has 4. So it seems that the new style is shorter. Although that is a poor way to tell.
spring
Hello Sinlecell, aren't we all guilty of that one day or another, so easily done:) I haven't check the size of the spring, but it would make sens that they would be different or the 2002 would be higher and I don't think it is. You should be happy to have the higher one, much easier to fit bigger tyres! I have mention the possible spring difference before. Now the strut extender is getting talked about, I am not for it, but reseting the spring with them would be an easy and cheap option.
Happy io.
Syndicate
fronts
Removed this post as it became irrelevant when I read another one of your other posts. test