Smooth ride please

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Rustypinin
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Hello everyone,

I own a 2000 pinin 3 door 1.8 gdi. Only 38000m, nothing looks faulty.

The ride quality is awful (I have driven several hundred different cars so I compare fairly).

Are there  other springs that can improve this please?

Did later or 5dr pinin have progressive coils-will these fit ok?

Do the bilstein or h+R springs improve matters (or like most aftermarket mods make it worse )?

The roads and potholes here do not help-however other cars cope better. I am not bothered about looks-being stylish!

Happy pinin motoring.

 

 

fordem
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Define awful.

What exactly are you looking for in terms of ride? 

Do Bilstein and H&R offer anything for these vehicles?

Why do I get the feeling I've asked you these questions before?

I wouldn't claim to have driven several hundred cars (and I've been driving for over four decades), but certainly a few dozen, and for what it is (a compact SUV), I'd say the ride quality is not bad, assuming the suspension is in good condition - it's a little softer than I like, but that is a personal preference, and there are occassions on which that is an advantage - ever had to make a run over a corrugated stretch of road?  I would not want to do that in a vehicle equipped with H&R springs (yes, I have personal experience with them) - it would probably shake your teeth loose.

Rustypinin
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Hiya, It was my job to

Hiya,

It was my job to deliver diagnose etc all types of new and used vehicles of all manufacturers. I may go into R+d testing eventually.

I've not really addressed looking into a solution until a few days ago. we are all so busy nowadays.

Part of the problem are the poor road surfaces here.

Some manufacturers drive disguised development vehicle's on UK roads to produce a set up to suit that environment, Mercedes had problems with the A-class and had to do it after launch -no one is  perfect!

The idea is to make the vehicle more settled, controlled and  composed......

Owners can do improvements, learn, adapt,, overcome...

Happy pinin motoring!

Rustypinin
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The bilstein springs are

The bilstein springs are under the B3 listing and are progressive. PDF file looong/.detailed..

As you say the H+R are stiffer (30 mm lower) but are progressive also .

Progressive type is common to many vehicles. The only downside can be failure at weakest point.

Happy pinin motoring!

fordem
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Not a whole lot of information there, and no detail at all.

Just part numbers, for a rear shock that's specified for the entire range - 1.8/2.0, 3/5 door, and springs for the 2.0 (which will fit the 1.8, but for some reason known only to Bilstein are not intended for it).  None of the vital statisics are present - free length, wire size, coil diameter or spring rate, and no details on intended usage - are they meant to be OE replacement, lowering springs or lift springs.

Back to your definition of "awful" - are we to assume you're blaming the vehicle for the poor road surface?

There isn't a whole lot you can do on the vehicle to compensate for a poor surface - what tyres & pressures are you running?  A smaller wheel with a higher profile tyre will put more sidewall between the rim & the road, but I believe anything smaller than the OE 16" rim will foul the calipers and anything taller than a 215/70R16 will foul the spring pan - many people, for whatever reason, run higher pressures than necessary - Mitsubishi recommends 26 psi (1.8 bar).

As mentioned earlier, I find the iO to be quite "softly" sprung - the OE front coils, are probably the longest, softest, largest diameter coils I've seen on an SUV, I can actually hold them in my hands & compress them - brand new OE coils, and I'm not exactly superman - a shock/strut combination with less damping might help, but I think it would ruin the ride, it's already on the soft side - it will wallow with less damping.

fordem
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OE Replacement

I found, on Demon Tweaks web page, the statement that the Bilstein B3 range are "direct replacement for the OE springs" - I wouldn't expect any significant improvement in ride quality - that is, assuming the existing springs aren't shot.  Coil springs do sag over time, and given the softness of the front coils, sagging is a distinct possibility (it is the reason I replaced mine), but apart from a slighty lower ride height, I don't foresee sagging coils causing a ride quality issue.

Rustypinin
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The front spring design seems

The front spring design seems to be ok. The rear however has little travel and droop (miniblock type). Ideally manufacturers would use a design with extra large diameter coils and long travel. Cost and space etc dictate otherwise usually. The original range rover, ro80, 2cv, etc had long travel and good axle articulation. Softer ride usually translates to better off road capabilities -wheels need to be in contact with the ground to be useful. I suppose owners on here have carried on development to suit their  own needs/improvements-nice! 

A series one land rover is not nice to be in off road -speed is limited offroad by the punishment the occupants internal organs can withstand! This is what marks out modern cars -the ability to cover long distances easily and tirelessly. On and off road.

Air suspension/hydraulic is ok off road when working. However it is not reliable long term, expensive to repair and rarely has perfect on road manners.

Manufacturers can spend millions and still get it wrong.....

Rustypinin
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Has anyone fitted lifting

Has anyone fitted lifting  spacers in urethane or rubber (or new springs) and noticed a ride improvement?

  • Maybe if these were compliant, maybe they could help with the 'give factor'. The original mini used rubber Moulton springs.

Unfortunately mini owners know the location of all potholes, so softer than that.

The other most likely improvement choices are 70/75/80 profile tyres, so has anyone felt differences with those tyres?

fordem
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First ride quality and now ride improvement ...

Earlier you defined what you were looking for as making the vehicle more "settled, composed and controlled" - which are, in my mind, more definitions of handling rather than ride "quality" - I have to assume that ride "improvment" would mean improving those qualities over stock.

I don't see lifting spacers made of polyurethane or rubber as contributing in any way to the ride being more "settled, composed and controlled" - what lifting spacers will do is simply lift the center of gravity, so if there is any change in the ride, it will likely be a degradation in those same areas.  Rubber lift spacers are typically made with very little "give" as that causes deformation leading to a premature loss of "lift", polyurethane comes in different "shore" or hardness, but every polyurethane bush or spacer I've seen has been significantly harder that it's rubber equivalent.

Incidentally, the rubber springs on a "dry" suspension classic Mini are not just a rubber puck or spacer, they are more a tapered doughnut sandwiched between specially shaped metal cones that force the rubber to extend "horizontally" outwards in response to the vertical motion of the vehicle - as for ride quality on a Mini - I don't think I can begin to describe the lack thereof - it might, however, meet your definitions for quality, it is very firm and controlled, but unfortunately, somewhat lacking in comfort.

Replacement springs - I have fitted new springs (many of us have), mine are Dobinsons which are quite a bit stiffer than stock, as evidenced by the fact that they lift the vehicle even though they have a shorter free length - yes - I would say there is an improvement in all areas you're looking for - it is more settled, composed and controlled - there is noticeably less nose dive under braking, noticeably less body roll in a turn (despite the increase in center of gravity), and when on a side slope, there's less of a feeling that it's about to roll over - BUT - and this is potentially a major shortcoming - because Dobinsons does not offer shocks or struts to complement their springs, the ride is noticeably "under damped" - on road this is most noticeable coming off of a speed bump or sleeping policeman.

Tire profile - I've switched, on an iO with stock suspension back & forth between 215/65 tires and 215/70 tires with no noticeable change in feel (possibly due to the soft suspension that the vehicle has as stock) - but, on a different SUV, a Suzuki Grand Vitara on Old Man Emu suspension switching from OE 60 profile tires to 70 profile did cause a noticeable change in the handling, the vehicle felt more "wobbly" - when the tires were changed, the only thing changed was the tire size - the tires coming off were the same as the ones going on - Dunlop GrandTrek AT3.

Claude io
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Spring for pajeroio.com

@Rustypinin in your first post you asked if they are other spring that can improve ride, then in the next post you said that it was your job to deliver diagnose etc all types of new and used vehicles of all manufacturers. All good but to me this is more a specialised engineer job, and I don't understand why you cannot "guess" if other spring could improve your own io handling. 

Anyway, yes replacing the spring could help but you will also need to have a good shock absorber. The very best, but costly, and because there is very little choice to buy straight from the shelf will be to have a custom made suspension to have spring and shock to match each other and to include your personnal taste and need. Next choice will be to get new shock and new spring and be carefull that they work together as the io have 2 different type of strut. 

Personnaly I have try to just use spacer, with the original strut, to lift the car, this work but you do loose handling. Without improving suspension any car lifted will loose handling. Then later I replaced the shock only, this gave me an improvment (spacer, original spring and new shock), then I put new spring with a new set of shock and spacer....with a much much better result. The latest was to have strut extender and no spacer, this gave a a bit more wheel travel but no much in term of handling.

I sold my io, if I were to get a new one, new spring and shock will be first on my list, because I tried and tested other option and for the ratio between cost and handling new was by far the best option/result ....for me. The new owner of my io wrote that it handle beautifully.... I think he is right !!

http://www.pajeroio.com/forum/new-member-too-many-daughters

Happy io

Rustypininagain
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Choppy ride

I can't blame mitsubishi for bad roads.
It does have a very short wheelbase which causes instability.
The tyre pressures are very low( not seen since 1970s vehicles =vw beetle). Clearly they were trying to fix something.
The high pan struts with high profile 75 or 80 tyres were where they should have gone with the first cars built. They don't all get it right first time. We have to go back and do the fix!

fordem
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Don't know if I would agree with that.

Rustypininagain wrote:
The tyre pressures are very low( not seen since 1970s vehicles =vw beetle). Clearly they were trying to fix something.

If I recall correctly something like 1.8 bar (at least on the four doors), maybe just coincidence, but exactly the same tyre pressure on my 1998 Suzuki Grand Vitara and my 2021 Suzuki Jimny.

So we have two "much more modern" vehicles than a 1970's VW Beetle, with not just similarly low pressures, but the exact same pressure, I wonder why?  Do you think it might have something to do with choosing a tire size so that the foot print of the tire can support the weight of the vehicle without excessive ground pressure.

Decreasing ground pressure improves flotation, allowing easier passage of the vehicle over softer terrain, and is, in fact, one of the reasons that Suzukis 4WDs have the reputation that they do for being unstoppable.

pebre
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I have a short pinin with 40

I have a short pinin with 40 mm spacers and original suspensions and slightly larger 225 70 16 tires, and I do not notice any obvious deterioration in the behavior of the car on the road or on dirt roads.

Your problem must come from wear of your suspension or deformation of the body.

fordem
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Just so it's clear.

Ride quality is subjective, you're going to compare the vehicle to what you are familiar with, to what you driven in the past.

What cannot be argued is that short wheel based vehicles, and the three door Pajero iO/Pinin qualifies as a short wheel based vehicle, will "pitch" more than a long wheel based vehicle, for example the five door iO/Pinin.

From personal experience with the iO, Mitsubishi chose to fit long, relatively soft springs to the car, giving it a relatively "cushiony" ride, the front springs are actually the longest, softest springs I have found to date on a MacPherson strut vehicle, soft enough that I can compress them using my hands, something that I cannot do for example with the springs from a Suzuki Vitara, which is a vehicle of similar size & weight, also with MacPherson strut front suspension.

The front suspension has very little compression travel before the bump stops "engage" and Mitsubishi uses the bump stops as an auxiliary spring to increase the spring rate as the suspension nears end of travel.  There is a thread on the forum listing various after market spring rates, these are all considerably stiffer than stock, and will contribute to what I would consider an unacceptably rough ride.

Rustypinin
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I think we may have found an

I think we may have found an answer accidently.
The spring rate is ok but travel is insufficient before the bump stops come into operation. This happens with many modified boy racer cars that are lowered. Yes centre of gravity is improved, ride and handling not always if on the stops.
I'd accept that the dampers may be sticking or stiff (only 38000 miles).
I think what I'm looking for is in a roundabout way like many pinin owners. A mild lift with high side wall tyres.
It was aimed more as an urban runabout for women if you read the brochure (ones with good sports bras I suspect).
The TJ wrangler is known for a similar ride with a short wheelbase. However jeep/usa vehicles are not as well designed /developed as Japanese ones and much lower budget.
used! Buumpstops are for use when a vehicle encounters occasional unusual conditions =overloading, severe bumps. Not often continual usage. OK it's not a dangerous serious problem but if I could improve easily it why not have a go....

fordem
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bump stops

Rustypinin wrote:
I think we may have found an answer accidently. The spring rate is ok but travel is insufficient before the bump stops come into operation. This happens with many modified boy racer cars that are lowered.

<SNIP>

Buumpstops are for use when a vehicle encounters occasional unusual conditions =overloading, severe bumps. Not often continual usage. OK it's not a dangerous serious problem but if I could improve easily it why not have a go....

I'm not certain why you see this is accidental - this is how Mitsubishi designed the vehicle - and whilst you may see "bumpstops" as having a different function, there are many manufacturers who would disagree with you - there are different styles of bumpstops and some are designed for use as I described earlier.

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