Change lowrange gearing from 1.548 to 1.925 with Delica parts?
Will be good !
I just exchanged a couple of emails with Mark Adaptors....if everything goes to plan, my transfer case is going on holidays to their shop for a trial at fitting the 2.85 ratio low gear....
Can't wait 
Happy io
Oh nice. Should be interesting to see how that goes.
I am wondering though, can a low range be too low for a certain car? I can see it being great for dirt/rocky hills, but for sand wouldnt it being too low be bad? Correct me if I am wrong as I have no idea at all.
My understanding, is it is not going to make any change in the high range, for your day to day driving.
The 1.54 (that we have) is around 85% higher than the 2.85. So this is pretty close to 100%. So my first gear (with the 2.85) is going to be similar than my actual (1.54) second gear. Or once the 2.85 is fitted, driving in low second gear is going to be nearly equal as driving today in my first low gear gear (1.54).
Some people don't like changing from high to low, but we don't have a big low torque engine and that what it is, having extra lower gear will help. In (with the 2.85) in first gear the car will go around 85 % slower than now, but this is easy to compensate by starting straight in second low gear.....the only down side is that the first gear is becoming the second gear, the second gear will become the third gear....and my actual fifth gear is ...lost ! as I am not driving in fifth low gear (who does!)...I don't care :)
Going slower in difficult passage is a real bonus, speed is not a big friend while doing 4x4.
So yes it can be too low for some car, but I don't think that it is the case here....unless I am missing something...but at this stage I am a very happy vegemite :)
I hope this help, I am not always the best to explain thing...keep asking if needed....
Happy io
I agree, there is no such
I agree, there is no such thing as a too low range.
Just be carefull of not snapping side shafts, use the 1st as a craw gear only, do not spin and abuse the 1st gear, but the amount we talk about is not that extreme anyway.
The slower the better !!!! Especially on rocky section where you need to craw. As said above if you drive sand just pull away in 2nd or 3rd. If you drive on sand and you find yourself shifting up to 5th Low Range, then you should have started of in high range anyway.
The IO is a 4 cylinder petrol and desperatly needs a lower 1st in Low range.
In December I have done a trip to Lesotho. I have travelled on "paths" for people and horses only, no cars have been through in months, even years. Very bad roads, had to pack rocks you name it. In fact some of the path we drove on is part of Roof of Africa. The main problem I discovered was climbing steep rocky uphills. First the car was loaded, then the altitude was 3000m. I had to drive like a mad man up these steep uphills, bouncing alot. Ths is not ideal for rocky sections as you loose traction when car bounces but if I went slower the IO would jut loose too much power and stall. I made it but the poor IO I abused a lot.
I am all up for a lower Low range thus I will keep a close eye on this thread. Does anyone have a drawing of the gears needed?
ratio
If you are interested by the 1.944, I would think that all mitsubishi that have a transfer case ratio of 1.944 would be suitable.....I don't know which one, but I would check all mitsubishi range one at the time to find them....
Ok, I have tried to find a way to explain a bit better the different ratio, mainly because I needed to understand a bit more myself, and make sure that, as mentioned by other, I don't end up with a too low ratio....
What I found on the web (I know, not always reliable!) is the way to calculate your gear ratio when exchanging any parts that would change it. Some talk that a final low gear ration of 50:1 + is good for a good 4x4, some have 100:1 + very low crawling gear. The way to calculate is multiply together the gear box actual gear ratio by the transfer case ratio by the diff ratio. My car, have the first gear ratio of 3.967, the transfer case ratio of 1.548 and diff ratio of 4.9. 3.967 x 1.548 x 4.9 = crapy...30.09. With the low gear from Markadaptors 3.967 x 2.85 x 4.9 = better... 54.4.
I have made these calculation, I didn't include the rear diff ratio, as I won't touch the high gearing, only the low gear. but If you want to change the diff doing similar calculation will show you the exact percentages of change.
Original gear with original low gear 1.548
Gear 1......3.967 x 1.548 = 6.14
Gear 2.....2.136 x 1.548 = 3.31
Gear 3......1.360 x 1.548 = 2.11
Gear 4.....1.00 x 1.548 = 1.55
Original gear with markadaptor 2.85 low gears
Gear 1......3.967 x 2.85 = 11.31 this is very much more than the original first gear, around 85% more
Gear 2.....2.136 x 2.85 = 6.09 this is very close to the original first gear of 6.14, less than 1% under
Gear 3......1.360 x 2.85 = 3.88 this is very close to the original second gear of 3.31, a bit more than 15% over
Gear 4.....1.00 x 2.85 = 2.85 this is more out to the original third gear of 2.11, a bit more than 35% over.
This number show that the car will have a new first gear, that the other won't affect much the other but the exception of the original third gear getting 35 % more than the new fourth gear. I don't know about you but for me if I get in third low gear is only because the next hard spot is close by and I can live with the difference.
This is the result using the 1.944 every thing is about 25 % higher ratio (higher the ratio, lower the actual speed)
Total ratio for the first gear 3.967 x 1.944 x 4.9 = 37.79
Gear 1......3.967 x 1.944 = 7.71
Gear 2.....2.136 x 1.944 = 4.152
Gear 3......1.360 x 1.944 = 2.64
Gear 4.....1.00 x 1.944 =1.94
Acceptable, you bet it is, specially if you can find a second hand transfer gear box and do the work yourself. Money is a big difference if you go that way. If you do every thing yourself getting the 2.85 cost around $1200, so a second hand transfer box is $200 (1.944) saving of $1000 but you don't have the first gear with 85% more (the important one!) The 25 % difference will be an usable advantage only in the first low gear, after you will change gear quicker.
These number are for my car, automatic and other model have a different ratio at the diff and gear box.But by using the same method you will know exactly the end result...on paper that is....for me I rather spend an extra $1000 and get the 2.85....this is on paper choice ! and only time will tell...the 85% more will be an usable advantage on first gear too, but it is 85% not 25%
Happy io.
Awesome
Nice job comparing them there Claude. The 2.85 sounds great on paper - basically just adding a little more torque to each gear and having one extra low gear.
I'm still hesitant at that price though.
I'm not super-mechanically minded, but is it straight-forward to change these gears? Are they located just behind the rear cover of the transfer case? If I could do it myself I would probably give the 1.944 gears a go and then see if it is a big enough improvement before investing the extra $$$.
I know that when I was on Fraser Island with my 29" mud tyres on, I was in 3rd gear (low range) most of the time at around 30kmh on the inland tracks. It was pretty much perfect gearing so I don't want to lose that capability.
gear swap
Thanks,
No it is not a straight forward job, more than replacing the gear under the cover, I would think that you will need special equipment to remove them from their shaft...Markadaptors estimated 4 to 6 hours, depending the work involved.
I thought that these number will help decide to go ahead or not, it depend a lot on what you do. And if you are happy with your "gear" I don't see the point of changing anything!!
The 3 low gearing system (ratio) have they own positive and negative, these comparison will help making the right choices. It does help me anyway!!
Happy io
HI all, I have posted a
HI all,
I have posted a similar table on the greek forum, for those working with excel it's easy to see the difference in calculations with all kind of ratios.
Installing the 1,944 gears is straight forward, no mod needed, everything just clicks into place, for the 2,85 we all ssume it will fit with substantial modification. It will definitely need cutting the H-L shift fork in order to fir the output gear, and definitely grinding the side wall of the transfer case to fit the idler gear, the 2,85 gear is 1 cm larger in diameter compared to the original so that means grinding 5mm off the side wall which is pretty much and it seems it falls in one of the screws that assembles the front cover. I might get a set and try to install them before you send the tcase over, will let u know! :)
transfer box
Does anyone now if the transfer box is the same on manual and automatic gear box ?...I would say that it is but I am not sure, any differences ? or if the 1.8 is the same as the 2 litres?. I am looking to get a second hand one to play with....
Happy io
Hi to all guys, I received
Hi to all guys,
I received 2 days ago a set of Marks low range gears 2,85 and as expected and calculated earlier, one of the gears does not fit. The large gear of the idler is too large to fit in the transfer of the IO compared to the tcase of pajero which has plenty of space!
In order for the gear to be able to fit part of the wall of the case has to be cut and be replaced and welded with an extended one, and possibly on the two points that the bolt holes are, which is quite delicate work and requires expert craftmanship, if doable anyway. I will contact a mechanic next week to see if we can make it work without compromising safety and reliability, but bottomline is that it doesn't fit straight away.
Will keep u posted with updates.
Learning the hard and expensive way // post 65
Does anyone now if the transfer box is the same on manual and automatic gear box ?...I would say that it is but I am not sure, any differences ? or if the 1.8 is the same as the 2 litres?. I am looking to get a second hand one to play with....
Happy io
I have just learned the hard and expensive way that the auto transfer case is NOT the same as the manual transfer case. F#$% and double F#$% what a waste of time and money....
NOT happy io....
I manage to get some photos
I manage to get some photos fro the issue:
Here is the original 1,54 gear installed:
Here are with the 1,925 larger gear installed:
AS you can see it is marginal, the tooth are a hair away from the tcase wall. I have made an animation to show you the difference between original and the 1,925:
The original 1,54 gear is 84mm in diameter, the 1,925 and 1,944 are 91mm and the MArks gears are 95mm you can understand the difference...
Here is the marks gear not fitting in:
And the animation between the origianl and marks:
The area with the problem is the following:
If we want to keep the original manufacturer's clearance between the gear tooth and the wall we have to "cut" it by 5mm which is not applicable since the wall itslelf is no more then 3mm thick. The bolt hole also poses a problem since u can not trim it that far inside.
I will know more next week, it's difficult for any mechanic engineer to give u a solution if it doesn't have it in hand, but u get an idea :)
This is AWESOME info
This is AWESOME info guys! Thanks!
Theres normally plenty of old pajeros at pick a part here to get bits from!
But I have a TIG welder sitting here doing nothing, Looks like the Marks gears shouldn't be tooooooo hard to make work?
Weld up the walls on the outside and grind them back on the inside, (looks like it will clear the bolt holes in the pics?) Anything else need grinding?
the 1.9s should really help tho, and surley we can run taller diff ratios, I know the old pajero crown gears fit the diff in the rear , I have put them on to check, not sure if the pinion is the same and will swap tho? Just need to see if the gen1 pajero front gears will swap over too?
Nice, well done I have had
Nice, well done
I have had the exact same idea. Easy and simple. My only concern was the threaded hole being to close to the edge, but it seems more than enough meat is left.
This would be an easy modification for engineering shop and should not be too expensive.
Again well done and thanks for posting the pics and effort people !!! Only ploblem for me is to get the bloody gears in South Africa....
On second though. What if we manufacture our own gears..... I can draw up the gears and send drawing for quotations. But for this I needs some info such as spline detail (for the quote it does not needs to be exact, but diameter of spline, number of splines etc) also the mating gear, number of teeth, diameter, spline detail etc. Also maybe a cross section profile with the various widths. How does the mating gear look like, for the gear in pic being larger the mating gear needs to be smaller.
This is off cause if the gears are not easily available.
The aluminium welding cost
The aluminium welding cost was around €50 , not very cheap, but necessary.
The whole process took around 14 hours!!! disassembly and assembly, we had to strip the whole transfer down to the last bit, screw, nut and bolt.... complete disassembly although that was easy, the assembly was harder, i would recommend it only to those with enough experience.
that was done last week, i haven;t moved the car since, i will probably make some miles on road the next few days to let the gears roll and see if the case sealing is ok at the point that it was welded and does not have any leaks and then will try it offroad. The first few km after installation seemed ok, as expected, actually the new 2nd low gear is the same and a little higher than the old original 1st low gear, so basically the only thing new is the 1st low gear.
I wouldn;t recommend 33" in any case, they are way heavier and larger than the car can handle. Going from origianl 27" to 33" is a bif leap without changing shafts, they will snap very easily. Not to mention that they car will have huge loss in power and torque especially in high range it will be a pain to drive.... and also that they will not fit! I have used 32" with 20cm wide for 1 month and changed back to 30" the car lost more than it gained, it was a drawback, not to mention that breaking dropped 30% it was almost impossible to brake safely. Imagine 33" with 25cm wide... u will have other problems in other parts of the transmision....
If u could get new gearing for the diffs that would be the best deal.... we have sucessfully installed 3 sets of 4,875 gears here in Greece and they suit just fine... the best dea for low gearsl in my opinion is the 1,925 set in which u only change the input and idler gear (not the output) and very easy to install... u only have to open the front case of the tcase, change the 2 gears, put it back, ready! u don;t have to change or disassemble anything else!!! the 1,944 set includes changing the output gear so that is extra disassembly and extra complicated parts have to go off...
I have to mention here that the lower the gearing combined with the larger the tyres, the stress on the transmision increases exponentially... that means that keeping the same tyres and lowering the gearing increases the stress all around, if u also increase the tyres it doubles.... of course it depends on the pattern of the tyre, the more aggressive it is the more stress it transfers to the transmision...
I would recommend finding a set of 1,9 low gears with a set of 4,875 (for those who have manual gearbox with 4,636) being the more efficient and value for money investment, together they cost half the price of 2,85 gears.
Do you know anyone that's
Do you know anyone that's broken shafts? I have abused my beast with 31" and no problems (yet)...
With my planned suspension mods I'm still unsure what size tyres will work the best. I'll try a few and see. My mate has won a few competitions with 33" in his little suzuki vitara..
I have no doubt the rears up to the torque, not sure about front shafts. If I can get a few spares cheap who cares :) Id still like to find a custom replacement....
Themis happy with 32" on his?
Thanks again for the info
Thanks again for the info guys! and taking the time to make those cool animated gifs!
I almost got an 84 Pajero transfer case today ($97), I got rained on just before i finished pulling it out :( will go back and get it tomorrow. Very tempted to also pull out the iO gearbox/transfer case ($225) and swap it all over to keep my car on the road.. be nice to have a spare to install some 2.85:1 into at some point too!
Nice work :)I have destroyed
Nice work :)
I have destroyed many gearboxes etc in my time, I like doing bad things to cars :) But i have never seen a pajero shaft smash, I have a heap of those shafts modified to 4 and 5 stud for my race car. 350kw at the wheels, they are been drag raced with clutch dumps and front wheels of the car in the air. I have a mate that has twisted an axle 180 degrees or more in his race car, but still never busted one like that, Im impressed :)
The normal cycle for me is, over do it, brake it, upgrade it. But with a baby and one wage at the moment I think ill keep things conservative for a while... IF i can :)
On a side note, Is Piniokio still around?
FREE 1.944 Low range
For anyone close enough to Newcastle, I have tracked down a gen 1 pajero that a guy is getting rid of. To far for me to get to so its all yours if you want it.
If you pull the transfer case out its yours for free! infact the entire car is free if you want it. Id pull the front diff out to compare crown and pinions if i was there.
http://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=29625
OK Thanks. That would be
OK Thanks. That would be this one?
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt29/jeepajero/Picture066.jpg
yes
If I were to choose between the 1.925 or the 1.944, would it be easier to get the 1.925 and replace 2 gears instead of 3...not that much difference between the 2 gearing anyway...
Happy io
Yes, with the 1,925 u keep the original pinin output low range gear and u only change the other two. The teeth cutting is engineeringly different, i think the 1,925 is better, they switched to that design after a certain MY, although i think it;s more common and probable to find the 1,944 set. Both work just fine.
They did also have some
They did also have some pajeros that i think were the 1.925, They looked harder to get the bits out of, I might have another look when i go back. accept it looks like its going to rain all day here today :( The 1.944 i pulled out without taking the box out the car at all, I think id need to drop the transfer case in the 1.925 cars. )
Rip the gear sticks out from inside the cabin to expose the gears and selector forks, bang the pins out of the selector forks, Get under the car and pull the back end of the transfer case off, undo and pull the now exposed shaft out the gears, take the cover off the side of the transfer case and pull all the bits out temove the circlip to pull the gear off the spline (im hoping) I also need to pull the gear off the output shaft too, not sure whats required for this? It appears to be nothing but pull it off?
In my ignorance I just got the 1.944, may have chosen the 1.925 had I realized. No harder to pull out, but will be easier to put in. Ortho I have a leak and need to split my transfer case apart anyway, so the 1.944 is not really any more work in my situation.
No its gotta come off, you
No its gotta come off, you can pull the gears for the gen1 pajero without taking it off, you still need to pull the back off the transfer case tho.
But the iO is a different design, it needs to come off. But overall I think the iO looks easier to work on than the gen 1 pajero IF your just doing the 1.925:1. Time will tell :)
Ill try and put together a step by step with pics at the start of this thread at some point. Just need to work out those steps first :) thank goodness for themis and Pinin on the rocks!
I believe its the V6 models
I believe its the V6 models that are 1.925, must be the V5MT1 box.
Maybe even some gen2s would work?
Info from here http://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=13310
Motor and Gearbox Combos
Gen 1
NA model Jan 83-Nov 84
swb 2.6 petrol & 2.3 TD 5sp (KM145) only
Hi-roof lwb introduced in May 84 with 2.6 petrol & 2.3 TD
NB model Nov 84-Nov 85
same variants as above except 2.3 TD not available with swb
NC model Nov 85-Oct 86
same variants as above except hi-roof lwb is replaced with low-roof version
ND model Oct 86-Oct 87
swb 2.6 petrol 5sp (KM145)
lwb 2.6 petrol & 2.5 TD 5sp (KM145)
Optional non lock up 4sp auto (KM148) for 2.6 petrol
NE model Oct 87-Sept 88
same variants as above
2.6 Jap petrol replaced with improved locally Oz made Astron 2 versions
NF model Sept 88-Sept 89
same variants as above
3.0 V6 introduced for lwb with 5sp (V5MT1) or 4sp auto (KM148)
3 link coil spring rear introduced for lwb 3.0 V6
NG model Sept 89-Apr 91
same variants as above except KM148 replaced with lock up 4sp V4AW2
2.5 TD was intercooled in 1990
rear disc brakes added with 3 link coil spring rear
Gen 2
NH model Apr 91-Nov 93
swb 2.6 petrol 5sp (V5M21) leaf springs 3.0 V6 5sp (V5MT1) rear coils
lwb 2.6 petrol 5sp (V5M21) leaf springs 2.5 TD 5sp (V5M21) leaf springs 2.5 TDI 5sp (V5MT1) rear coils 3.0 V6 5sp (V5MT1) or 4sp auto (V4AW2) rear coils
NJ model Nov 93-Mar 97
rear leaf springs dropped everything now 3 link coils
swb 3.0 V6 5sp (V5MT1) or 4sp auto (V4AW2)
lwb 2.8 D 5sp (V5M21) 2.8 TDI 5sp (V5M31) 3.0 V6 5sp (V5MT1) or 4 sp auto (V4AW2)
Luxury Exceed model 3.5 DOHC V6 lwb 4 sp auto (V4AW3)
Sep 95 3.5 DOHC V6 made standard across range (3.0 V6 dropped)
NK model Mar 97-Oct 97
swb 3.5 DOHC V6 5sp (V5M31) or 4sp auto (V4AW3)
lwb 2.8 TDI 5sp (V5M31) 3.5 DOHC V6 5sp (V5M31) or 4sp auto (V4AW3)
NL model Oct 97-Jul 00 (known as Gen 2.5 in US)
swb same as NK
lwb same as NK except 3.5 DOHC V6 replaced with 3.5 SOHC V6
T/case & Final Drive Ratio's
Gen 1
2.3 TD = 4.875, 5.29
2.6 / 2.5 TD = 4.625, 4.875
2.5 TDI = 4.625, 4.875
3.0 V6 = 4.625, 4.875
t/case = 1.944:1 low range for 2.6, 2.3 TD & 2.5 TD, 1.925:1 for 3.0 V6
Gen 2
2.6 = 4.875
2.5 TD & 2.5 TDI = 4.875, 5.29
3.0 V6 = 4.625, 4.875
2.8 D = 4.875
2.8 TDI = 4.90
3.5 DOHC V6 = 4.636
t/case = 1.925:1 low range for 2.6, 2.5 TD, 2.5 TDI & 3.0 V6, 1.90:1 for 2.8 TDI & 3.5 DOHC V6
More info!
Pinin on the rocks wrote (regarding the fitting of the 2.85 low gear)
It will definitely need cutting the H-L shift fork in order to fir the output gear
I am trying to understand this...any more info on that mod, needed or not ? pictures? Thanks
I have bought a spare transfer box to have a look, it is from an auto gear box, but it is just for training !! and I might use it to modify the parts needed to fit on mine later on.
Happy io
For the diagram you can check
For the diagram you can check the 22D transmission manual, i think it is available for download from this forum. It provides detail on assembly and disassembly of the transfer case.
For cutting the shift fork it looks something like this:
I LOVE that you guys take
I LOVE that you guys take pics of everything!
Any other bits needed? Gaskets etc? Or did you just use silicon ? Do you have part numbers?
My clutch has been on the way out for a while, but has finally become almost undrivable now. So I'm going to do the clutch diffs and low range all in one hit.
I just want to get all my ducks in a row and make sure I have All the parts I need so I can do it quickly. I might as well do the diff drop at the same time :)
Syndicate
Triton is L200
The L300 is the little express van 4wd I think...?
Still could be good to find out if the L200 fits if its easy and cheap for you to obtain. ;)
Size is not important; it's how you use it that matters!